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Thread: Goodbye, Columbus Day

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mister D View Post
    That's all well and good but in that case their travels would be just as irrelevant as those of the Vikings. The Columbian voyages stand out because of their ultimate historical effects.
    They stand out in European history in terms of helping to fund and prolong the imperialistic war efforts of several nations, helping to kill even more European peasants press ganged into service and ultimately provided a new place for the excess Euro population to run to, to escape persecution, exploitation, poverty and starvation. However, the Conquistadors and the migration brought disease and destruction to existing peoples and cultures, some of which no longer even exist. Objectively, it came at a huge price. For the descendants of the indigenous peoples of the Americas, Columbus day is a form of schadenfreude.
    Last edited by Dr. Who; 10-10-2018 at 10:12 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Who View Post
    They stand out in European history in terms of helping to fund and prolong the imperialistic war efforts of several nations, helping to kill even more European peasants press ganged into service and ultimately provided a new place for the excess Euro population to run to, to escape persecution, exploitation, poverty and starvation. However, the Conquistadors and the migration brought disease and destruction to existing peoples and cultures, some of which no longer even exist. Objectively, it came at a huge price. For the descendants of the indigenous peoples of the Americas, Columbus day is a form of schadenfreude.
    This is world history. The fact is that his voyages changed the world in a variety of ways. They are of immense historical significance for all of us.

    BTW, the composition of premodern armies was quite different from what you imagine. Modern states were both more capable and more disposed ideologically to make everyone participate in warfare. I'll expand on that tomorrow if anyone is interested. Secondly, the demographics of colonial settlement might also surprise you.
    Whoever criticizes capitalism, while approving immigration, whose working class is its first victim, had better shut up. Whoever criticizes immigration, while remaining silent about capitalism, should do the same.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Chris View Post
    You're plainly not answering my question. Yes, we know a lot about primitive man and early civilization. But I'm asking you about what we do not know and how that had any effect on us, and what evidence you have for that.
    Yes, I am answering your question. Do you think that people suddenly woke up 4,000 years ago and invented everything? No one had developed any mathematics of any kind, no one had developed any form of astronomy, no one had invented the wheel, a boat or had developed language, philosophy or religion? We've been around for 200,000 years, minimally.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mister D View Post
    This is world history. The fact is that his voyages changed the world in a variety of ways. They are of immense historical significance for all of us.

    BTW, the composition of premodern armies was quite different from what you imagine. Modern states were both more capable and more disposed ideologically to make everyone participate in warfare. I'll expand on that tomorrow if anyone is interested. Secondly, the demographics of colonial settlement might also surprise you.
    If by world, you mean European Imperialism, I agree. Other than adding to the trade goods that circulated around the world and providing more means for Europeans to wage war on other nations not directly benefiting from the looting of the Americas, I think that your use of the word 'world' is rather narrow. In the fullness of time, it certainly has altered the entire world.
    In quoting my post, you affirm and agree that you have not been goaded, provoked, emotionally manipulated or otherwise coerced into responding.



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    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Who View Post
    If by world, you mean European Imperialism, I agree. Other than adding to the trade goods that circulated around the world and providing more means for Europeans to wage war on other nations not directly benefiting from the looting of the Americas, I think that your use of the word 'world' is rather narrow. In the fullness of time, it certainly has alterued the entire world.
    No, I mean the world. I don't even understand what your first sentence means. Anyway, the Aztecs and Inca were both imperialist peoples but that's not really the point. The point is that the Columbian Exchange was one of the most important events in world history regardless of what you might think about anyone's intentions.
    Whoever criticizes capitalism, while approving immigration, whose working class is its first victim, had better shut up. Whoever criticizes immigration, while remaining silent about capitalism, should do the same.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Mister D View Post
    No, I mean the world. I don't even understand what your first sentence means. Anyway, the Aztecs and Inca were both imperialist peoples but that's not really the point. The point is that the Columbian Exchange was one of the most important events in world history regardless of what you might think about anyone's intentions.
    The Aztecs and Incas were destroyed, wiped out. Yes, that was an important event although one that shouldn't be celebrated.
    In quoting my post, you affirm and agree that you have not been goaded, provoked, emotionally manipulated or otherwise coerced into responding.



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    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Who View Post
    The Aztecs and Incas were destroyed, wiped out. Yes, that was an important event although one that shouldn't be celebrated.
    Civilizations, for good or bad, have risen and fallen throughout history. Competition / conflict between groups of humans is what has sparked technological advancement as groups looked for any advantage that they could get over the others.

    The Spanish did not defeat the Aztecs and Incas on their own. Local tribes that had long been subjugated by the Aztecs and Incas willingly helped the Spanish. It is doubtful the Spanish would have been very successful without their help.

    I use to joke that if the Aztecs and Inca were serious about holding onto their empires they would have deployed their blue water navies to defeat the Spanish invaders at sea before they made landfall. Of course they didn't have a navy- they had no need of one. They were at the top of their food chain and knew of no external threat. They were stunted; no more real threats and no more pushing for technological advancement. What do you think they would have done had they had long-term advance notice of Europe's plans to exploit their lands? They wouldn't have sat on their hands, that is for sure.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Who View Post
    Yes, I am answering your question. Do you think that people suddenly woke up 4,000 years ago and invented everything? No one had developed any mathematics of any kind, no one had developed any form of astronomy, no one had invented the wheel, a boat or had developed language, philosophy or religion? We've been around for 200,000 years, minimally.
    You're not answering my question. You're telling us things we know, things that can be found at Wikipedia and elsewhere. Yes, indeed, all these things emerged in our past and we know it because we have the evidence of history and archieology and anthropology and etc. But you made a claim about possible lost civilizations that we don't know about, and I asked you how they could have influenced us and what evidence you have to show that--for these unknown civilization that may or may not have existed.

    It really does come down to D's point about the meaning of discovery. Some lost, forgotten, unknown civilization might have reached America long before anyone else, but we don't know that, because it had no impact on us like Columbus's discovery has.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Who View Post
    If by world, you mean European Imperialism, I agree. Other than adding to the trade goods that circulated around the world and providing more means for Europeans to wage war on other nations not directly benefiting from the looting of the Americas, I think that your use of the word 'world' is rather narrow. In the fullness of time, it certainly has altered the entire world.
    Here's the thing about history too, it doesn't include the baggage of your judgments about imperialism.
    Tradition is not the worship of ashes, but the preservation of fire. ― Gustav Mahler

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Who View Post
    The Aztecs and Incas were destroyed, wiped out. Yes, that was an important event although one that shouldn't be celebrated.
    But they were imperialist peoples who happened to lose. They weren't saints. Anyway, that's not what I'm talking about. The Columbian Exchange and the advent of truly global system (indeed, the modern world) is the topic. It's not a matter of celebrating it although men like Columbus had incredible courage. It's a matter of its historical significance. His discovery of America is of the greatest significance. Easily one of the most critical events of the last millennium.
    Whoever criticizes capitalism, while approving immigration, whose working class is its first victim, had better shut up. Whoever criticizes immigration, while remaining silent about capitalism, should do the same.


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