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Thread: Goodbye, Columbus Day

  1. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chris View Post
    You're not answering my question. You're telling us things we know, things that can be found at Wikipedia and elsewhere. Yes, indeed, all these things emerged in our past and we know it because we have the evidence of history and archieology and anthropology and etc. But you made a claim about possible lost civilizations that we don't know about, and I asked you how they could have influenced us and what evidence you have to show that--for these unknown civilization that may or may not have existed.

    It really does come down to D's point about the meaning of discovery. Some lost, forgotten, unknown civilization might have reached America long before anyone else, but we don't know that, because it had no impact on us like Columbus's discovery has.
    That's really it.
    Whoever criticizes capitalism, while approving immigration, whose working class is its first victim, had better shut up. Whoever criticizes immigration, while remaining silent about capitalism, should do the same.


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  3. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Who View Post
    Many scholars are highly attached to maintaining the historical (European) status quo. People were traversing even greater distances by sea in the distant past. The distance between S. America and Africa is ridiculously short. To assume that neither Africans nor S. American's could have sailed across is silly. The distance from Scandinavia to Newfoundland is not much shorter and the Vikings were not exactly an advanced society . The N. Atlantic trip would have been far more perilous. Evidence of African artifacts have been found all over S. America. This simply doesn't fit a certain Eurocentric view of history.
    Do you comprehend English? The Vikings were here before him. He set off the trade. See what is being talked about. The exploitation of two new continents is the "discovery."
    Liberals are a clear and present danger to our nation
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chris View Post
    You're plainly not answering my question. Yes, we know a lot about primitive man and early civilization. But I'm asking you about what we do not know and how that had any effect on us, and what evidence you have for that.
    Who misunderstood the whole thing. Rather than admit it and going on she will continue this line.
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  5. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by Captdon View Post
    Who misunderstood the whole thing. Rather than admit it and going on she will continue this line.
    Who has an agenda to signal virtue by.
    Tradition is not the worship of ashes, but the preservation of fire. ― Gustav Mahler

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Who View Post
    Yes, I am answering your question. Do you think that people suddenly woke up 4,000 years ago and invented everything? No one had developed any mathematics of any kind, no one had developed any form of astronomy, no one had invented the wheel, a boat or had developed language, philosophy or religion? We've been around for 200,000 years, minimally.
    You're the only one talking about that. We are talking about the increase in trade. Why don't you give up and admit you don't know what is being talked about?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chris View Post
    Here's the thing about history too, it doesn't include the baggage of your judgments about imperialism.
    Talking to her is exactly like talking to a brick wall.
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  9. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mister D View Post
    But they were imperialist peoples who happened to lose. They weren't saints. Anyway, that's not what I'm talking about. The Columbian Exchange and the advent of truly global system (indeed, the modern world) is the topic. It's not a matter of celebrating it although men like Columbus had incredible courage. It's a matter of its historical significance. His discovery of America is of the greatest significance. Easily one of the most critical events of the last millennium.
    One of the true marks of greatness is humility. Acknowledging the demise of entire civilizations and cultures of people lost to the world in this process of transition does not diminish the present, but honors what has been sacrificed to make this (modern world) possible.

    Columbus was not a particularly noble or altruistic individual - he wanted to be the guy who found a shortcut to India for very materialistic reasons and for its part in funding the expedition, the Spanish Crown was hoping to shift the balance of power in Spain's favor and reap the rewards of the reported riches of India. In fact, Columbus's agreement with the Spanish Crown was that Columbus could retain 10 percent of any "merchandise, whether pearls, precious stones, gold, silver, spices and other objects" that he "acquired" within the new territory. So much for altruism and courage. It took almost 10 years of lobbying various monarchies to find one avaricious enough to take a chance on him.

    "Wrongway Chris" did not actually discover "America" i.e. N. America, he discovered the Caribbean and almost immediately forced the natives into slavery in pursuit of gold. His treatment of the natives was so horrible that in 1499, the Spanish monarchs got wind of the mistreatment of Spanish colonists in Hispaniola, including the flogging and executions without trial that Columbus, who was governor of the territory, was arrested, chained up, and brought back to Spain. This is the individual who is being honored on Columbus day.

    He didn't even 'discover' N. America. N. America was charted by Giovanni Caboto aka John Cabot in 1497. So, if anything, it should be Cabot day.
    Last edited by Dr. Who; 10-11-2018 at 06:31 PM.
    In quoting my post, you affirm and agree that you have not been goaded, provoked, emotionally manipulated or otherwise coerced into responding.



    "The difference between what we do and what we are capable of doing would suffice to solve most of the world’s problems.”
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  11. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Who View Post
    One of the true marks of greatness is humility. Acknowledging the demise of entire civilizations and cultures of people lost to the world in this process of transition does not diminish the present, but honors what has been sacrificed to make this (modern world) possible.

    Columbus was not a particularly noble or altruistic individual - he wanted to be the guy who found a shortcut to India for very materialistic reasons and for its part in funding the expedition, the Spanish Crown was hoping to shift the balance of power in Spain's favor and reap the rewards of the reported riches of India. In fact, Columbus's agreement with the Spanish Crown was that Columbus could retain 10 percent of any "merchandise, whether pearls, precious stones, gold, silver, spices and other objects" that he "acquired" within the new territory. So much for altruism and courage. It took almost 10 years of lobbying various monarchies to find one avaricious enough to take a chance on him.

    "Wrongway Chris" did not actually discover "America" i.e. N. America, he discovered the Caribbean and almost immediately forced the natives into slavery in pursuit of gold. His treatment of the natives was so horrible that in 1499, the Spanish monarchs got wind of the mistreatment of Spanish colonists in Hispaniola, including the flogging and executions without trial that Columbus, who was governor of the territory, was arrested, chained up, and brought back to Spain. This is the individual who is being honored on Columbus day.

    He didn't even 'discover' N. America. N. America was charted by Giovanni Caboto aka John Cabot in 1497. So, if anything, it should be Cabot day.

    The only problem with your entire argument is you don't know who those lost civilizations might have been to even begin to acknowlege them. You lament the loss of something you imagine.
    Tradition is not the worship of ashes, but the preservation of fire. ― Gustav Mahler

  12. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Who View Post
    One of the true marks of greatness is humility. Acknowledging the demise of entire civilizations and cultures of people lost to the world in this process of transition does not diminish the present, but honors what has been sacrificed to make this (modern world) possible.
    The man has been dead for 500 years. What on Earth are you talking about?

    Columbus was not a particularly noble or altruistic individual - he wanted to be the guy who found a shortcut to India for very materialistic reasons and for its part in funding the expedition, the Spanish Crown was hoping to shift the balance of power in Spain's favor and reap the rewards of the reported riches of India. In fact, Columbus's agreement with the Spanish Crown was that Columbus could retain 10 percent of any "merchandise, whether pearls, precious stones, gold, silver, spices and other objects" that he "acquired" within the new territory. So much for altruism and courage. It took almost 10 years of lobbying various monarchies to find one avaricious enough to take a chance on him.
    I don't think you're particularly noble or altruistic either but what I think of you is about as relevant as what you think of Columbus'. So much for courage? Who, you ride a subway to work. He embarked on a trip he may very well have never returned from. I'm sorry but this is one of your sillier moments. Columbus wasn't courageous...I mean seriously? Men like Columbus were the astronauts of the 15th and 16th Century except there was no calling Houston. He was avaricious for expecting compensation? What?

    BTW, the Spanish Crown didn't think too much of the enterprise and took a lot of convincing. They didn't pay much attention to what was happening in the new found lands because they had more important matters to attend to.
    "Wrongway Chris" did not actually discover "America" i.e. N. America, he discovered the Caribbean and almost immediately forced the natives into slavery in pursuit of gold. His treatment of the natives was so horrible that in 1499, the Spanish monarchs got wind of the mistreatment of Spanish colonists in Hispaniola, including the flogging and executions without trial that Columbus, who was governor of the territory, was arrested, chained up, and brought back to Spain. This is the individual who is being honored on Columbus day.
    You're struggling with concepts here. You really need to stop Googling. It's not helping. Pro tip: Hispaniola is part of North America but that's not what "America" in this context. It refers to all of North, South and Central America. It was because of his voyages that this entire landmass came to the attention is the rest of the world. The rest is irrelevant to his historical significance.


    He didn't even 'discover' N. America. N. America was charted by Giovanni Caboto aka John Cabot in 1497. So, if anything, it should be Cabot day.
    See pro-tip and further notes above. Please remember them.
    Last edited by Mister D; 10-11-2018 at 07:28 PM.
    Whoever criticizes capitalism, while approving immigration, whose working class is its first victim, had better shut up. Whoever criticizes immigration, while remaining silent about capitalism, should do the same.


    ~Alain de Benoist


  13. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chris View Post
    The only problem with your entire argument is you don't know who those lost civilizations might have been to even begin to acknowlege them. You lament the loss of something you imagine.
    There is a lot wrong with that argument if we can call it that.
    Whoever criticizes capitalism, while approving immigration, whose working class is its first victim, had better shut up. Whoever criticizes immigration, while remaining silent about capitalism, should do the same.


    ~Alain de Benoist


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