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Thread: Academic Activists Send a Published Paper Down the Memory Hole

  1. #71
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    I'll admit I'm arguing in a way I myself reject, arguing from possibility, arguing from ignorance, when I say I don't see the differentiation between the effects of ADHD and its associated stigma. I do see data that says it has an immediate effect on performance but a long-term, overall effect on the ability to do math, on intelligence, no, I don't see it. With ADHD or gender. That might well just be me.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chris View Post
    But how desperate out actual ADHD affects from perceptions.

    The one study Polly linked reported poor performance by those then and told poor performance was expected of girls. If I were told that, I'd do poorly. But that says nothing of overall ability.
    Not sure that I understand you.

    I mentioned previously that some kids are resilient to being told or having it implied that they won't be successful, but a lot of kids are not resilient. When there is something like a diagnosis of ADHD that usually comes with special learning environments and teachers, it says "You're different" and sometimes "You won't succeed". Kids react to that. They might not try or try hard if they think they won't succeed. They may, without realizing, put less effort into things. A child with ADHD (a legit diagnosis) can thrive and even do better than their peers with the right treatment/therapy, but if they get a teacher who thinks kids with ADHD are poorly behaved and perform badly, a child can pick up on that. A lot of teachers have bad perceptions of students with ADHD. Sometimes it is subtle things that are not even said or done on purpose that slowly, over time, make a student think they'll do poorly.

    And a self-fulfilling prophecy is an actual concept that does happen frequently. If someone who has felt like they are not going to succeed is sat down and told to take an IQ test, they may score poorly because they think they will score poorly. They won't put a full effort in. A confident student might sit down for that test and do the best that they can do. An overconfident student will sit down for that test and probably overestimate their ability and score poorly because they didn't think to double check their responses. It's tied into self-esteem and self-worth. When there is something like ADHD present, self-esteem and self-worth will take a hit because of stigma, and stigma is very present in schools.

    If a friend told me their child had been diagnosed with ADHD I would advise them to never tell the school. Have the child go to therapy and learn to manage their symptoms, possibly take medication, get a tutor if necessary and only provide that information to the school or teacher if those strategies are not successful. Schools and teachers, even though they deal with behavioral and developmental problems all the time, are probably the worst for exhibiting negative, stereotyped opinions about ADHD. Why? They can be more work. They can sometimes be difficult to manage, especially if not in treatment, recently diagnosed, or not yet diagnosed officially. They might be disruptive and seem disrespectful. It is easy to resent a student who takes up more of your time. It is a natural evolution that educators are going to often have negative opinions about ADHD.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Adelaide View Post
    Not sure that I understand you.

    I mentioned previously that some kids are resilient to being told or having it implied that they won't be successful, but a lot of kids are not resilient. When there is something like a diagnosis of ADHD that usually comes with special learning environments and teachers, it says "You're different" and sometimes "You won't succeed". Kids react to that. They might not try or try hard if they think they won't succeed. They may, without realizing, put less effort into things. A child with ADHD (a legit diagnosis) can thrive and even do better than their peers with the right treatment/therapy, but if they get a teacher who thinks kids with ADHD are poorly behaved and perform badly, a child can pick up on that. A lot of teachers have bad perceptions of students with ADHD. Sometimes it is subtle things that are not even said or done on purpose that slowly, over time, make a student think they'll do poorly.

    And a self-fulfilling prophecy is an actual concept that does happen frequently. If someone who has felt like they are not going to succeed is sat down and told to take an IQ test, they may score poorly because they think they will score poorly. They won't put a full effort in. A confident student might sit down for that test and do the best that they can do. An overconfident student will sit down for that test and probably overestimate their ability and score poorly because they didn't think to double check their responses. It's tied into self-esteem and self-worth. When there is something like ADHD present, self-esteem and self-worth will take a hit because of stigma, and stigma is very present in schools.

    If a friend told me their child had been diagnosed with ADHD I would advise them to never tell the school. Have the child go to therapy and learn to manage their symptoms, possibly take medication, get a tutor if necessary and only provide that information to the school or teacher if those strategies are not successful. Schools and teachers, even though they deal with behavioral and developmental problems all the time, are probably the worst for exhibiting negative, stereotyped opinions about ADHD. Why? They can be more work. They can sometimes be difficult to manage, especially if not in treatment, recently diagnosed, or not yet diagnosed officially. They might be disruptive and seem disrespectful. It is easy to resent a student who takes up more of your time. It is a natural evolution that educators are going to often have negative opinions about ADHD.
    Meant to type "But how seperate out actual ADHD affects from perceptions."

    What you're reporting is more or less an immediate effect. ADHD kids told by teachers they can perform well and the kids meeting those expectations. How people treat you will have that effect, on anyone. Or it could be the ADHD that just has that effect regardless. I don't see anything that seperates out the two possible causes. Nor do I see anything that says what an ADHD kid is told affects anything beyond immediate performance, affect general math skills or intelligence.

    It parallels what Who and Polly argued, well, what the studies they linked to argued, that being told girls won't perform well led to lowered self esteem. But that's expected, for anyone. Those studies didn't ties that to low math or IQ scores.
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  4. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mister D View Post
    Females outperform men overall academically and excel in such fields as biology, veterinary science, agriculture and law. Must be because they're socialized to believe they're less intelligent.
    This is the new trend. Females are out performing males in education.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peter1469 View Post
    This is the new trend. Females are out performing males in education.
    Right. What I'd like to know is what practical effect does this supposed "low self-esteem" actually have in academic terms?
    Whoever criticizes capitalism, while approving immigration, whose working class is its first victim, had better shut up. Whoever criticizes immigration, while remaining silent about capitalism, should do the same.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Peter1469 View Post
    This is the new trend. Females are out performing males in education.
    The study (metastudy) I reported much earlier in the thread said the change started more like 60 years ago.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mister D View Post
    Right. What I'd like to know is what practical effect does this supposed "low self-esteem" actually have in academic terms?
    The gender studies never looked at test or IQ scores, only at the effect of telling girls they could do well and measuring the emotive effect on them then and there.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chris View Post
    The gender studies never looked at test or IQ scores, only at the effect of telling girls they could do well and measuring the emotive effect on them then and there.
    I could muster a little more respect for "feminism" if feminists would stop circulating these canards and the sloppy (or perhaps agenda driven?) scholarship associated with them.
    Whoever criticizes capitalism, while approving immigration, whose working class is its first victim, had better shut up. Whoever criticizes immigration, while remaining silent about capitalism, should do the same.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Mister D View Post
    I could muster a little more respect for "feminism" if feminists would stop circulating these canards and the sloppy (or perhaps agenda driven?) scholarship associated with them.
    Much as they try to dissemble, it's painfully obvious they argue from agenda, not data. Like Polly's thread this morning claiming the contraceptive morning after pill doesn't abort.
    Tradition is not the worship of ashes, but the preservation of fire. ― Gustav Mahler

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