Brett Kavanaugh’s accuser comes out of the shadows

[Sergeant Gleed]

Uh ... because this is not a criminal court where the defendant enjoys the right to face his accuser under the 6th Amendment (Confrontation Clause) ?

The presumption of innocence is the most important foundation stone in all of Western Civilization.

So you're saying you're opposed to civilization.

[stjames1_53]

The presumption of innocence is the most important foundation stone in all of Western Civilization.

So you're saying you're opposed to civilization.

No, exo is saying that rape is not a criminal offense............wonder why exo says that.........maybe it's only rape if a Republican does anything out of line? Or is it not rape when a democrat does it.......

[Hoosier8]

Hmmm, Ford can’t remember when or where but suddenly remembers 30 years later after a drunken night out at a party, who.

[stjames1_53]

..........36 years............the left demand we be accurate to an atom

[jet57]

Yes, but I fail to see why you believe that her confessing to committing felony perjury upon the Senate Judiciary Committee would harm the victim.

YOU say she's lying; I'm not going to pass that judgement.

[jet57]

Yeah, she suddenly remembered this in 2012 when democrats were worried Romney would win and Kavanaugh was on his list of possible nominees.

Remember what Pelosi said, facts are not important, it’s the seriousness of the allegation that counts.

This is the dems kangaroo court to trash people in the arena of public opinion. Facts don’t matter. They have tried two times before with nominees, maybe they think the third times the charm.

That is just your opinion.

[IMPress Polly]

@Chloe

24 hours later, I do sincerely regret the sarcasm in my earlier post. I mean that. I am sorry for being harsh and I can tell that you're trying to calm things down a bit and I'll reciprocate. (Yes, I noticed the "awesome" remark, among other things. Thanks.) After reading your reply, I can see that we are farther apart on this whole subject area than I had even realized and maybe I need to stick to basics.

I’m not comfortable talking about certain difficult issues because I don’t have a lot of experience sometimes with those issues. I don’t personally know anybody, friends or family, that have been a true victim of sexual violence, I’ve never been a victim of sexual violence, and all cards on the table ive never had even consensual sexual contact yet. I’m not dismissive of these issues I just don’t like to politicize them or to pick teams based on my body parts. I think it’s important for women to be taken seriously on these issues but I don’t think that an accusation means automatic guilt. I’ve met other girls over the years that were downright mean and dishonest that even if they were being honest I’d have my doubts. On the same coin I know plenty of other girls that are awesome people and if they said they were assualted I’d believe them because I “know” them, but good people lie too. I’m truly sorry if you feel that I’m dismissive of these issues since I don’t mean to be, but I also don’t think your comments were very fair.

As for the topic the reason I have my doubts about this is the timing and how the accusation was brought about.if you don’t look at it as a male vs female thing or a republican vs democrat thing and just look at it from an objective point of view it just seems awfully choreographed in my opinion as an attempt to derail the nomination and discredit Kavanaugh. In today’s world the easiest way to quickly end a mans career is to make a sexual accusation since it takes much much much less time to make the accusation and create the fallout than it does to investigate it and wait for the truth to be found. By the time the truth is found, whether he was guilty or not, he’s been dismissed and vilified and forgotten. That’s why when I heard about this accusation and the timing if felt like a weapon to me. You say not to worry, that he will be nominated, you say it as if I am an advocate for him. I’m not. But I just can’t ignore my conscience and my eyes and ears in favor of being part of the right crowd or so I don’t lose my feminist card.

I'm sorry that I got emotional before. Honestly, if it had been like Mister D, Chris, Ransom, Common, Hoosier, or someone else I have a fairly low opinion of, I would've just kept scrolling and not dignified the given opinion with a reply because I would've fully expected it and known there was no hope there, but because it came from you, I cared. And obviously it's a more personal issue for me than it is for most. Much as I think it is necessary, I'm not enjoying this period we're going through right now in this country where like 1 out of every 4 news stories on any given day (and I'm not just talking about the crime report) are about sexual violence or at least harassment. Sexual assault, rape, attempted rape...these are not my favorite subjects. They are not comfortable for me either. I've had to get used to talking about them all the time where I'd really rather just try and forget. It's not very fun being reminded of the worst, most painful and humiliating things that have ever happened to you every day and that this is now what the world wants to talk about all the time, mostly from a rather uncaring, or at most a superficially concerned, point of view.

Anyway, I'm surprised that you don't know anyone who has experienced some form of sexual assault before. I mean statistically speaking, in the most recent public survey I've seen, 27% of American female respondents reported that they had personally experienced sexual assault before. That's more than 1 out of 4. It's probably an underestimation too, I suspect. At least half the women I've known before either online or off have disclosed at least one experience of sexual assault at some point or other before. Here this includes not just me, but also Trish, Adelaide, and lots of the conservative women we've had here over the years as well (remember Redrose, for example?). Most of the women we've had on here have experienced sexual violence before. Even one of our male members (who is no longer here very often, unfortunately), my friend Green Arrow, is a survivor too. I think that if you spend enough time in any one space, sooner or later you'll probably hear most of the women disclose some kind of memory to this effect. Same goes with my family. In addition to me, my mom was raped by a number of men (mostly ones she married) over the years, my older cousin was molested as a child by her youth pastor, and her mom (my mom's sister) was raped and beaten by the owner of a local shop, and also molested by her uncle, growing up. So I mean, gauging either by statistics or my lived experience, I'm surprised that you don't know anyone at all who has had this kind of experience. Honestly, I suspect that maybe just no one has told you before.

The reason I bolded a couple of remarks above was to highlight beliefs about me that I feel are unfair and arbitrary. I think you will find that, on even a cursory survey of your past commentaries on specific cases of sexual violence here on PF over the years, you have consistently sided with the accused and really never seem to have anything more than superficially sympathetic words for survivors of a tone and nature that could easily be generated by any corporate PR group. I really do think that honesty with yourself requires that you acknowledge that much and the possibility that, accordingly, it might actually be you who is viewing these issues through the prism of more bias and prejudice than me.

No, I don't come from a mental perspective wherein someone who is accused of sexual violence is probably innocent. I mean even police estimates suggest that more than 90% of women who come forward with stories of rape or sexual assault are telling the truth. The fact is that it takes a lot of bravery to come forward, particularly if the individual you have something to say about is a prominent person loved and adored by millions and millions who will surely not respond kindly toward you regardless of your veracity. Don't get me wrong, I have heard stories that sounded to me like they might be untrue as well, but frauds I find tend to be both rare and usually pretty obvious. Like the accuser will not be traumatized at all (never saw a therapist in her life or something), won't behave anything like the average survivor does, that sort of thing. This does not apply to Christine Blasey Ford.

Of course substantiation is still important. But we're not talking about the prospect of Brett Kavanaugh going to jail here. He's on trial here only in the court of public opinion, not a court of law. He's not going to jail. What we're talking about is simply whether or not he will move up in his career. I feel that the bar there doesn't need to be absolute proof of guilt (attempted rape being almost impossible to prove). I feel Ford passing a lie detector test (which it's not easy to fake) should probably be considered sufficient evidence for legitimate suspicion and that you are simply choosing to ignore that very real and significant evidence. I mean I noticed that you didn't respond to that point or bother coming up with a way in which the accuser has benefited from anything related to this development. You say that our society is not interested in waiting for these cases to be investigated, yet what you (along with Kavanaugh and his supporters) are, in fact, opposing in this case is precisely a further investigation into the matter by an independent, non-partisan, outside group. That is what Ford has requested, not something else. You see the inconsistency in your own standards and demands? Despite the existence of real grounds for suspicion, you have reached the conclusion of Kavanaugh's innocence absent a proper investigation and prefer for there not to be one at all. What then makes you less biased than me or the #MeToo movement or the feminists of the world that you lament?

You say that it's "easy" to discredit men with accusations. I will point you to a similar Supreme Court nomination battle that took place in 1991. What was the outcome? Well Clarence Thomas is now Supreme Court Justice Clarence Thomas, Orrin Hatch is still on the Senate Judiciary Committee, Joe Biden is considered the leading prospective president candidate for the 2020 Democratic ticket, and Anita Hill...well...she's known as that $#@! who made that accusation. That's how these things have tended to work in real life. Christine Ford is being treated less fairly than Anita Hill was. They won't even allow a halfhearted investigation of her claim.

I mean I guess I'm supposed to apologize here for being a feminist, but I just don't feel it. Believe it or not, I don't actually approach these matters out of a desire to see men persecuted, enslaved, castrated, disenfranchised, or otherwise disadvantaged. I don't think that you just assuming that of me is very fair at all. What I want is justice and for survivors to not have to live in so much fear and shame.

[stjames1_53]

YOU say she's lying; I'm not going to pass that judgement.

...yet you're convinced Kavanaugh should be hung at dawn. Naw...........of course she's telling the truth. She can't prove her claim and is afraid to do it in front of him.

[Chris]

@Chloe

24 hours later, I do sincerely regret the sarcasm in my earlier post. I mean that. I am sorry for being harsh and I can tell that you're trying to calm things down a bit and I'll reciprocate. (Yes, I noticed the "awesome" remark, among other things. Thanks.) After reading your reply, I can see that we are farther apart on this whole subject area than I had even realized and maybe I need to stick to basics.


I'm sorry that I got emotional before. Honestly, if it had been like Mister D, Chris, Ransom, Common, Hoosier, or someone else I have a fairly low opinion of, I would've just kept scrolling and not dignified the given opinion with a reply because I would've fully expected it and known there was no hope there, but because it came from you, I cared. And obviously it's a more personal issue for me than it is for most. Much as I think it is necessary, I'm not enjoying this period we're going through right now in this country where like 1 out of every 4 news stories on any given day (and I'm not just talking about the crime report) are about sexual violence or at least harassment. Sexual assault, rape, attempted rape...these are not my favorite subjects. They are not comfortable for me either. I've had to get used to talking about them all the time where I'd really rather just try and forget. It's not very fun being reminded of the worst, most painful and humiliating things that have ever happened to you every day and that this is now what the world wants to talk about all the time, mostly from a rather uncaring, or at most a superficially concerned, point of view.

Anyway, I'm surprised that you don't know anyone who has experienced some form of sexual assault before. I mean statistically speaking, in the most recent public survey I've seen, 27% of American female respondents reported that they had personally experienced sexual assault before. That's more than 1 out of 4. It's probably an underestimation too, I suspect. At least half the women I've known before either online or off have disclosed at least one experience of sexual assault at some point or other before. Here this includes not just me, but also Trish, Adelaide, and lots of the conservative women we've had here over the years as well (remember Redrose, for example?). Most of the women we've had on here have experienced sexual violence before. Even one of our male members (who is no longer here very often, unfortunately), my friend Green Arrow, is a survivor too. I think that if you spend enough time in any one space, sooner or later you'll probably hear most of the women disclose some kind of memory to this effect. Same goes with my family. In addition to me, my mom was raped by a number of men (mostly ones she married) over the years, my older cousin was molested as a child by her youth pastor, and her mom (my mom's sister) was raped and beaten by the owner of a local shop, and also molested by her uncle, growing up. So I mean, gauging either by statistics or my lived experience, I'm surprised that you don't know anyone at all who has had this kind of experience. Honestly, I suspect that maybe just no one has told you before.

The reason I bolded a couple of remarks above was to highlight beliefs about me that I feel are unfair and arbitrary. I think you will find that, on even a cursory survey of your past commentaries on specific cases of sexual violence here on PF over the years, you have consistently sided with the accused and really never seem to have anything more than superficially sympathetic words for survivors of a tone and nature that could easily be generated by any corporate PR group. I really do think that honesty with yourself requires that you acknowledge that much and the possibility that, accordingly, it might actually be you who is viewing these issues through the prism of more bias and prejudice than me.

No, I don't come from a mental perspective wherein someone who is accused of sexual violence is probably innocent. I mean even police estimates suggest that more than 90% of women who come forward with stories of rape or sexual assault are telling the truth. The fact is that it takes a lot of bravery to come forward, particularly if the individual you have something to say about is a prominent person loved and adored by millions and millions who will surely not respond kindly toward you regardless of your veracity. Don't get me wrong, I have heard stories that sounded to me like they might be untrue as well, but frauds I find tend to be both rare and usually pretty obvious. Like the accuser will not be traumatized at all (never saw a therapist in her life or something), won't behave anything like the average survivor does, that sort of thing. This does not apply to Christine Blasey Ford.

Of course substantiation is still important. But we're not talking about the prospect of Brett Kavanaugh going to jail here. He's on trial here only in the court of public opinion, not a court of law. He's not going to jail. What we're talking about is simply whether or not he will move up in his career. I feel that the bar there doesn't need to be absolute proof of guilt (attempted rape being almost impossible to prove). I feel Ford passing a lie detector test (which it's not easy to fake) should probably be considered sufficient evidence for legitimate suspicion and that you are simply choosing to ignore that very real and significant evidence. I mean I noticed that you didn't respond to that point or bother coming up with a way in which the accuser has benefited from anything related to this development. You say that our society is not interested in waiting for these cases to be investigated, yet what you (along with Kavanaugh and his supporters) are, in fact, opposing in this case is precisely a further investigation into the matter by an independent, non-partisan, outside group. That is what Ford has requested, not something else. You see the inconsistency in your own standards and demands? Despite the existence of real grounds for suspicion, you have reached the conclusion of Kavanaugh's innocence absent a proper investigation and prefer for there not to be one at all. What then makes you less biased than me or the #MeToo movement or the feminists of the world that you lament?

You say that it's "easy" to discredit men with accusations. I will point you to a similar Supreme Court nomination battle that took place in 1991. What was the outcome? Well Clarence Thomas is now Supreme Court Justice Clarence Thomas, Orrin Hatch is still on the Senate Judiciary Committee, Joe Biden is considered the leading prospective president candidate for the 2020 Democratic ticket, and Anita Hill...well...she's known as that $#@! who made that accusation. That's how these things have tended to work in real life. Christine Ford is being treated less fairly than Anita Hill was. They won't even allow a halfhearted investigation of her claim.

I mean I guess I'm supposed to apologize here for being a feminist, but I just don't feel it. Believe it or not, I don't actually approach these matters out of a desire to see men persecuted, enslaved, castrated, disenfranchised, or otherwise disadvantaged. I don't think that you just assuming that of me is very fair at all. What I want is justice and for survivors to not have to live in so much fear and shame.

Honestly, if it had been like Mister D, Chris, Ransom, Common, Hoosier, or someone else I have a fairly low opinion of, I would've just kept scrolling and not dignified the given opinion with a reply because I would've fully expected it and known there was no hope there, but because it came from you, I cared.

Yes, we know how frustrated you get with those who disagree with you. We know this because you told us recently. But we're just not a captive audience in a classroom. Or commenters on a blog you get to accept or delete.

[Hoosier8]

That is just your opinion.

Fact, 2012.