Liberalism vs Conservatism

[Chris]

Oh come on. You know very well that when liberals are called communists or Marxists, it's done to associate them with totalitarian regimes.

It's the same tactic and methodology as when liberals call conservatives fascists. It's dishonest and an attempt to create guilt by association.

...Fascists are leftists so calling those on the right that makes no sense.

Fascists are far right and authoritarian on the political compass.

Calling them leftists would would be innacurate. Unless of course one makes up their own definition to suit their own opinions.

Most conservative ideology includes an element of minarchy, not monarchy. Liberals are for large, centralized government.

Fascists/nazis were collectivists just like communists, both were anti-individualism, anti-capitalism. Only difference, one believed socialism better achieved nationally, among a people in a place, while the other were global universalists.

Inaccurate only in not adhering to the liberal consensus you hold so dearly to.

And so it ended.


This association of conservatism with authoritarianism is odd, though of course not as odd as the nutty association of conservatism with racism.


I thought I'd take the topic up again in a new thread.

@Common Sense, not calling you out, just letting you know I copied your posts over.


Here's what I think is a rather neutral source, PBS, on the difference between conservatives and liberals.



A quick snapshot for those who don't want to watch:

Conservative: Believes large government thwarts individual liberty and so prefers the smallest government possible and that at state or local level. Advocates a free-market economy to give opportunity to all.

Liberal: Believes government is needed to help solve problems, a bigger government bigger and more problems. Support government intervention in the economy in the form of regulations and taxes to help marginalized groups.

Basically, small, local government, individualism, and free markets vs big government, central planning, and identity groups.


In short, the association of authoritarianism with conservatism is just another myth that has no foundation in facts, facts that associate liberalism, its modern version, with authoritarianism.

[Trish]

Chris,

I believe the issue is the platforms that liberal and conservatives are known to support are different from what today's Democrats and Republicans are for.

The parties have been taken over by more vocal groups that are pushing for more extreme agendas. This is why there are so many people leaving both parties in droves.

I know I'm not telling you something you don't already know because you've made the same observation.

We need to stop pretending the new republican and democrat are the same as the old republican and democrat. They no longer exist. We can't compare them to what they once were.

[Chris]

Chris,

I believe the issue is the platforms that liberal and conservatives are known to support are different from what today's Democrats and Republicans are for.

The parties have been taken over by more vocal groups that are pushing for more extreme agendas. This is why there are so many people leaving both parties in droves.

I know I'm not telling you something you don't already know because you've made the same observation.

We need to stop pretending the new republican and democrat are the same as the old republican and democrat. They no longer exist. We can't compare them to what they once were.

Well I agree there, when it comes to parties you get mixes of ideologies. The Republican Party was almost the opposite during the late 1800s into the 1900s, that is anti-free market. That changed when the new conservatives of the 1950s emerged who adhere to classical liberal, small govermnet, free-market principles. More recently you see neocons, ex-communists and ex-Troskyites--coming in who are liberal domestically but sodmewhat imperialistic in foreign policy, thus authoritarian. And when Carter disappoint the Evangelicals they switched to the Republican Party hoping to impose their values. But these latter two are virtually indisguishable from liberals, just pushing different values.

[Sergeant Gleed]

Chris,

I believe the issue is the platforms that liberal and conservatives are known to support are different from what today's Democrats and Republicans are for.

The parties have been taken over by more vocal groups that are pushing for more extreme agendas. This is why there are so many people leaving both parties in droves.

I know I'm not telling you something you don't already know because you've made the same observation.

We need to stop pretending the new republican and democrat are the same as the old republican and democrat. They no longer exist. We can't compare them to what they once were.

The "new Democrat" is the old racist bigoted power-mad intolerant Democrat that has existed since before the Civil War...a war started by the Democrats to keep their slaves on the plantation, just like what today's "new" Democrats are trying to do.

[Captain Obvious]

Everyone on one side wants to associate the concept of fascism with the other side. It's kind of... stupid in a lot of ways.

Fascism has elements of both liberalism and conservatism and to try to label it wholly one and not the other is ridiculous.

To be honest, I don't know if an honest discussion about liberalism contrasted with conservatism could happen here since I think many if not most people have predisposed opinions of both.

[Chris]

Everyone on one side wants to associate the concept of fascism with the other side. It's kind of... stupid in a lot of ways.

Fascism has elements of both liberalism and conservatism and to try to label it wholly one and not the other is ridiculous.

To be honest, I don't know if an honest discussion about liberalism contrasted with conservatism could happen here since I think many if not most people have predisposed opinions of both.

That's why I picked the more or less liberal PBS to define terms.

I agree about the comparison with fascism, in the sense that neither fascism nor conservatism is historically or accurately represented by statements they are/were merely authoritarian and that that is somehow even a property of the right. It's just an easily repeatable myth.

[Chris]

One other thing the video says is that modern liberals tend to identify themselves as New Dealers.

FDR was big on central planning and authoritarian control over the US. FDR, Mussolini, and Hitler, and I would toss in Stalin, all had a mutual admiration for each other's central planning--see Hitler, Mussolini, Roosevelt, or Three New Deals: Why the Nazis and Fascists Loved FDR, or more. One can argue, sure, there was a Depression going on, and a War, but in the aftermath of both, FDR's fellow traverlers wanted to keep the country on a war footing, that, luckily, Congress rejected.

[Mister D]

If we're discussing American politics fascism and even European conservatism simply isn't relevant. That has always been the primary stumbling block in such discussions. They never really get off the ground because everyone is talking about different things.

[donttread]

And so it ended.


This association of conservatism with authoritarianism is odd, though of course not as odd as the nutty association of conservatism with racism.


I thought I'd take the topic up again in a new thread.

@Common Sense, not calling you out, just letting you know I copied your posts over.


Here's what I think is a rather neutral source, PBS, on the difference between conservatives and liberals.



A quick snapshot for those who don't want to watch:

Conservative: Believes large government thwarts individual liberty and so prefers the smallest government possible and that at state or local level. Advocates a free-market economy to give opportunity to all.

Liberal: Believes government is needed to help solve problems, a bigger government bigger and more problems. Support government intervention in the economy in the form of regulations and taxes to help marginalized groups.

Basically, small, local government, individualism, and free markets vs big government, central planning, and identity groups.


In short, the association of authoritarianism with conservatism is just another myth that has no foundation in facts, facts that associate liberalism, its modern version, with authoritarianism.

I try to look at candidates in terms of how controlling they are. And the answer for most is VERY!

[Chris]

I try to look at candidates in terms of how controlling they are. And the answer for most is VERY!

Certainly, politicians are. That's why I quit the Libertarian Party when they went national. I just couldn't see why a party that advocates minarchy wants to run for office nationally, locally, ok, but nationally, the seat of central power, no.