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Thread: Guilty until proven innocent?

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    Guilty until proven innocent?

    Sometimes there is a difference which simply cannot be split.

    Often, however, it can be split--and should be.

    The #MeToo movement is entirely correct in noting that women have often been disregarded when they dared to speak up about sexual assault.

    On the other hand, the placards that proclaim that "women should be believed" about sexual assault go too far. They turn the presumption of innocence on its head. Some people have tried to circumvent this fact by claiming that the presumption of innocence applies only to those actions within a criminal court.

    The fact, however, is that this is a fundamental principle of our country--and of western society in general.

    If we should ever change that to "guilty until proven innocent"--whether in a criminal court or within society in general--our country will have reached a truly disastrous point.

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    donttread's Avatar Senior Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by pjohns View Post
    Sometimes there is a difference which simply cannot be split.

    Often, however, it can be split--and should be.

    The #MeToo movement is entirely correct in noting that women have often been disregarded when they dared to speak up about sexual assault.

    On the other hand, the placards that proclaim that "women should be believed" about sexual assault go too far. They turn the presumption of innocence on its head. Some people have tried to circumvent this fact by claiming that the presumption of innocence applies only to those actions within a criminal court.

    The fact, however, is that this is a fundamental principle of our country--and of western society in general.

    If we should ever change that to "guilty until proven innocent"--whether in a criminal court or within society in general--our country will have reached a truly disastrous point.

    They have derailed a qualified candidate with what amounts to, at it's center , an unproven accusation with no evidence from 30 some years ago.
    That is in fact a "Guilty until proven innocent " mindset.
    Has anyone looked inrto the Constitutionality of how this ( and other conformations ) have been conducted?

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    A lot of the #me too victims do have evidence and a lot of the targets have known history of such behavior. With that said, this stunt by the Dems will hurt the #me too movement, and that is a shame.
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    How do you feel about contract dating? Everything that's anticipated for a night out is agreed to in writing by all parties on the date, and if new circumstances arise during the course of the evening or someone wants to do something that isn't in the signed contract, it is renegotiated on the spot before proceeding.


    That has to be one of the best ideas this forum has ever seen. Imagine a nice candle light dinner with a gorgeous companion and a lawyer on each side of you. How romantic.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lummy View Post
    How do you feel about contract dating? Everything that's anticipated for a night out is agreed to in writing by all parties on the date, and if new circumstances arise during the course of the evening or someone wants to do something that isn't in the signed contract, it is renegotiated on the spot before proceeding.


    That has to be one of the best ideas this forum has ever seen. Imagine a nice candle light dinner with a gorgeous companion and a lawyer on each side of you. How romantic.
    In the past a few universities tried to make this sort of thing mandatory. Didn't really work out.
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    Quote Originally Posted by pjohns View Post
    Sometimes there is a difference which simply cannot be split.

    Often, however, it can be split--and should be.

    The #MeToo movement is entirely correct in noting that women have often been disregarded when they dared to speak up about sexual assault.

    On the other hand, the placards that proclaim that "women should be believed" about sexual assault go too far. They turn the presumption of innocence on its head. Some people have tried to circumvent this fact by claiming that the presumption of innocence applies only to those actions within a criminal court.

    The fact, however, is that this is a fundamental principle of our country--and of western society in general.

    If we should ever change that to "guilty until proven innocent"--whether in a criminal court or within society in general--our country will have reached a truly disastrous point.
    I don’t think it’s so much that they have been disregarded over accusations of sexual assault, but they have been over accusations of sexual harassment. For legitimate reasons in many cases.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lummy View Post
    How do you feel about contract dating? Everything that's anticipated for a night out is agreed to in writing by all parties on the date, and if new circumstances arise during the course of the evening or someone wants to do something that isn't in the signed contract, it is renegotiated on the spot before proceeding.


    That has to be one of the best ideas this forum has ever seen. Imagine a nice candle light dinner with a gorgeous companion and a lawyer on each side of you. How romantic.
    This is a question that I did not anticipate. (Full disclosure: I had never before heard of "contract dating.")

    I am married--and happily so; therefore, I no longer date.

    If I were single and (therefore) still dating, I would find such an idea to be the very antithesis of anything romantic.

    In short, I would quite dislike it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lummy View Post
    How do you feel about contract dating? Everything that's anticipated for a night out is agreed to in writing by all parties on the date, and if new circumstances arise during the course of the evening or someone wants to do something that isn't in the signed contract, it is renegotiated on the spot before proceeding.


    That has to be one of the best ideas this forum has ever seen. Imagine a nice candle light dinner with a gorgeous companion and a lawyer on each side of you. How romantic.

    Well that depends on two questions
    1) Are the lawyers also beautiful and of the opposite sex?
    2) Are they a little kinky?

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    Agree with the OP entirely.

    I'll post this as a summary of what I've said so many times: Presumption of innocence not just for criminal courts.

    ...Perhaps most disturbing is the argument, peddled by Kavanaugh’s opponents, that the presumption of innocence doesn’t apply outside of criminal courts. The argument is this: Because neither the Senate nor the general public sits as a jury to decide whether or not to convict Kavanaugh of a crime, it’s unreasonable for Kavanaugh’s defenders to demand that he be accorded a presumption of innocence.

    It’s true that a fundamental feature of American criminal law is the presumption of innocence given to all criminal suspects. A government possessing the power to oblige those whom it accuses of crimes to prove their innocence is a government that is practically unconstrained in jailing or executing whichever individuals it finds to be inconvenient. It’s untrue, however, that this presumption is or ought to be confined to criminal courts.

    A presumption of innocence is one that every civilized person uses routinely in his or her everyday life.

    ...We use a presumption of innocence in our daily lives in part because we understand that talk is cheap. It’s easy to falsely accuse someone of committing a wrong. And so if accusations were taken as proof of their own truth, the Johnnys of the world could unjustly inflict harm on the Jimmys far too easily. All the Johnnys would have to do is to level false accusations against the Jimmys.

    Another reason we use the presumption of innocence in our daily lives is that we understand the impossibility of proving a negative. If someone has committed a wrongful act, there’s an actual event that happened. And evidence can in principle always — and in practice frequently — be gotten for events that happen.

    ...A presumption of innocence is embedded in our criminal law for the same reason that it is embedded in the rules by which we conduct our daily lives — namely, a presumption of guilt, being nearly impossible to overturn, would enable each of us far too easily to inflict unjustified ‘punishment’ on innocent others whom we, for whatever reason, wish to harm.
    Tradition is not the worship of ashes, but the preservation of fire. ― Gustav Mahler

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    Quote Originally Posted by pjohns View Post
    Sometimes there is a difference which simply cannot be split.

    Often, however, it can be split--and should be.

    The #MeToo movement is entirely correct in noting that women have often been disregarded when they dared to speak up about sexual assault.

    On the other hand, the placards that proclaim that "women should be believed" about sexual assault go too far. They turn the presumption of innocence on its head. Some people have tried to circumvent this fact by claiming that the presumption of innocence applies only to those actions within a criminal court.

    The fact, however, is that this is a fundamental principle of our country--and of western society in general.

    If we should ever change that to "guilty until proven innocent"--whether in a criminal court or within society in general--our country will have reached a truly disastrous point.

    How many court cases has been heard, where it was almost certain the defendant was guilty, till the trial proved different ; resulting in a public, and more so, a community shock?

    How many court cases has been heard, where the defendant(s) were found guilty, and a later / follow up investigation found them innocent through DNA, or some other evidence?

    How many innocent defendants were found guilty, by the prejudicial and biased juries of the 1970s, to the late 1980s, where black defendants were found guilty by an all white jury?

    How does public influance and public sentiment guide the final decision of jurors in trials?

    Is a defendants constitutional rights compromised by media and public speculation?

    Why do some prosecutors at times, deal with "a defendant", instead of making sure they have the right criminal prosecuted, and the real crime solved, versus " just try any individual"? ( yes, I have read this before )



    This is the United States of America. Where all US citizens have basic, civil, and constitutional rights guaranteed by law. Where we as US citizens, under the law, should have those rights protected at all costs.

    Color, religion, social status, residential situation, economic ability and position, should not be a deciding factor in the court room. The idea of justice is to punish the guilty for the crime committed, and not the person deemed the criminal in public sentiment or media mock trials. How would a juror or officer of the court feel if they were wrongly incarcerated, for something they did not do.

    When ones life is turned upside down, split in two, and devastated by a court trial ; where their liberty's are wrongly taken away under the color of the law, is a tragedy.





    Major Lambda
    Ab Extra & Sui Generis

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