User Tag List

+ Reply to Thread
Page 4 of 8 FirstFirst 12345678 LastLast
Results 31 to 40 of 74

Thread: Goodbye, Columbus Day

  1. #31
    Points: 112,096, Level: 81
    Level completed: 49%, Points required for next Level: 1,554
    Overall activity: 36.0%
    Achievements:
    SocialVeteranTagger First Class50000 Experience Points
    Dr. Who's Avatar Advisor
    Karma
    858721
    Join Date
    Jan 2013
    Location
    Gallifrey
    Posts
    46,177
    Points
    112,096
    Level
    81
    Thanks Given
    933
    Thanked 977x in 696 Posts
    Mentioned
    26 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by Mister D View Post
    That's all well and good but in that case their travels would be just as irrelevant as those of the Vikings. The Columbian voyages stand out because of their ultimate historical effects.
    They stand out in European history in terms of helping to fund and prolong the imperialistic war efforts of several nations, helping to kill even more European peasants press ganged into service and ultimately provided a new place for the excess Euro population to run to, to escape persecution, exploitation, poverty and starvation. However, the Conquistadors and the migration brought disease and destruction to existing peoples and cultures, some of which no longer even exist. Objectively, it came at a huge price. For the descendants of the indigenous peoples of the Americas, Columbus day is a form of schadenfreude.
    Last edited by Dr. Who; 10-10-2018 at 10:12 PM.
    "The difference between what we do and what we are capable of doing would suffice to solve most of the world’s problems.”
    Mahatma Gandhi

  2. #32
    Original Ranter
    Points: 211,957, Level: 100
    Level completed: 0%, Points required for next Level: 0
    Overall activity: 73.0%
    Achievements:
    SocialRecommendation Second ClassOverdrive50000 Experience PointsVeteran
    Mister D's Avatar Senior Member
    Karma
    392209
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Posts
    84,819
    Points
    211,957
    Level
    100
    Thanks Given
    16,591
    Thanked 29,151x in 20,984 Posts
    Mentioned
    870 Post(s)
    Tagged
    1 Thread(s)

    Exclamation

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Who View Post
    They stand out in European history in terms of helping to fund and prolong the imperialistic war efforts of several nations, helping to kill even more European peasants press ganged into service and ultimately provided a new place for the excess Euro population to run to, to escape persecution, exploitation, poverty and starvation. However, the Conquistadors and the migration brought disease and destruction to existing peoples and cultures, some of which no longer even exist. Objectively, it came at a huge price. For the descendants of the indigenous peoples of the Americas, Columbus day is a form of schadenfreude.
    This is world history. The fact is that his voyages changed the world in a variety of ways. They are of immense historical significance for all of us.

    BTW, the composition of premodern armies was quite different from what you imagine. Modern states were both more capable and more disposed ideologically to make everyone participate in warfare. I'll expand on that tomorrow if anyone is interested. Secondly, the demographics of colonial settlement might also surprise you.
    Whoever criticizes capitalism, while approving immigration, whose working class is its first victim, had better shut up. Whoever criticizes immigration, while remaining silent about capitalism, should do the same.


    ~Alain de Benoist


  3. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to Mister D For This Useful Post:

    Captdon (10-11-2018),Chris (10-11-2018)

  4. #33
    Points: 112,096, Level: 81
    Level completed: 49%, Points required for next Level: 1,554
    Overall activity: 36.0%
    Achievements:
    SocialVeteranTagger First Class50000 Experience Points
    Dr. Who's Avatar Advisor
    Karma
    858721
    Join Date
    Jan 2013
    Location
    Gallifrey
    Posts
    46,177
    Points
    112,096
    Level
    81
    Thanks Given
    933
    Thanked 977x in 696 Posts
    Mentioned
    26 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by Chris View Post
    You're plainly not answering my question. Yes, we know a lot about primitive man and early civilization. But I'm asking you about what we do not know and how that had any effect on us, and what evidence you have for that.
    Yes, I am answering your question. Do you think that people suddenly woke up 4,000 years ago and invented everything? No one had developed any mathematics of any kind, no one had developed any form of astronomy, no one had invented the wheel, a boat or had developed language, philosophy or religion? We've been around for 200,000 years, minimally.
    "The difference between what we do and what we are capable of doing would suffice to solve most of the world’s problems.”
    Mahatma Gandhi

  5. #34
    Points: 112,096, Level: 81
    Level completed: 49%, Points required for next Level: 1,554
    Overall activity: 36.0%
    Achievements:
    SocialVeteranTagger First Class50000 Experience Points
    Dr. Who's Avatar Advisor
    Karma
    858721
    Join Date
    Jan 2013
    Location
    Gallifrey
    Posts
    46,177
    Points
    112,096
    Level
    81
    Thanks Given
    933
    Thanked 977x in 696 Posts
    Mentioned
    26 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by Mister D View Post
    This is world history. The fact is that his voyages changed the world in a variety of ways. They are of immense historical significance for all of us.

    BTW, the composition of premodern armies was quite different from what you imagine. Modern states were both more capable and more disposed ideologically to make everyone participate in warfare. I'll expand on that tomorrow if anyone is interested. Secondly, the demographics of colonial settlement might also surprise you.
    If by world, you mean European Imperialism, I agree. Other than adding to the trade goods that circulated around the world and providing more means for Europeans to wage war on other nations not directly benefiting from the looting of the Americas, I think that your use of the word 'world' is rather narrow. In the fullness of time, it certainly has altered the entire world.
    "The difference between what we do and what we are capable of doing would suffice to solve most of the world’s problems.”
    Mahatma Gandhi

  6. #35
    Original Ranter
    Points: 211,957, Level: 100
    Level completed: 0%, Points required for next Level: 0
    Overall activity: 73.0%
    Achievements:
    SocialRecommendation Second ClassOverdrive50000 Experience PointsVeteran
    Mister D's Avatar Senior Member
    Karma
    392209
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Posts
    84,819
    Points
    211,957
    Level
    100
    Thanks Given
    16,591
    Thanked 29,151x in 20,984 Posts
    Mentioned
    870 Post(s)
    Tagged
    1 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Who View Post
    If by world, you mean European Imperialism, I agree. Other than adding to the trade goods that circulated around the world and providing more means for Europeans to wage war on other nations not directly benefiting from the looting of the Americas, I think that your use of the word 'world' is rather narrow. In the fullness of time, it certainly has alterued the entire world.
    No, I mean the world. I don't even understand what your first sentence means. Anyway, the Aztecs and Inca were both imperialist peoples but that's not really the point. The point is that the Columbian Exchange was one of the most important events in world history regardless of what you might think about anyone's intentions.
    Whoever criticizes capitalism, while approving immigration, whose working class is its first victim, had better shut up. Whoever criticizes immigration, while remaining silent about capitalism, should do the same.


    ~Alain de Benoist


  7. The Following User Says Thank You to Mister D For This Useful Post:

    Captdon (10-11-2018)

  8. #36
    Points: 112,096, Level: 81
    Level completed: 49%, Points required for next Level: 1,554
    Overall activity: 36.0%
    Achievements:
    SocialVeteranTagger First Class50000 Experience Points
    Dr. Who's Avatar Advisor
    Karma
    858721
    Join Date
    Jan 2013
    Location
    Gallifrey
    Posts
    46,177
    Points
    112,096
    Level
    81
    Thanks Given
    933
    Thanked 977x in 696 Posts
    Mentioned
    26 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by Mister D View Post
    No, I mean the world. I don't even understand what your first sentence means. Anyway, the Aztecs and Inca were both imperialist peoples but that's not really the point. The point is that the Columbian Exchange was one of the most important events in world history regardless of what you might think about anyone's intentions.
    The Aztecs and Incas were destroyed, wiped out. Yes, that was an important event although one that shouldn't be celebrated.
    "The difference between what we do and what we are capable of doing would suffice to solve most of the world’s problems.”
    Mahatma Gandhi

  9. #37
    Original Ranter
    Points: 467,164, Level: 100
    Level completed: 0%, Points required for next Level: 0
    Overall activity: 99.9%
    Achievements:
    SocialCreated Album picturesOverdrive50000 Experience PointsVeteran
    Awards:
    Posting Award
    Peter1469's Avatar Advisor
    Karma
    413876
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Location
    NOVA
    Posts
    142,896
    Points
    467,164
    Level
    100
    Thanks Given
    82,210
    Thanked 64,849x in 44,304 Posts
    Mentioned
    2159 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Who View Post
    The Aztecs and Incas were destroyed, wiped out. Yes, that was an important event although one that shouldn't be celebrated.
    Civilizations, for good or bad, have risen and fallen throughout history. Competition / conflict between groups of humans is what has sparked technological advancement as groups looked for any advantage that they could get over the others.

    The Spanish did not defeat the Aztecs and Incas on their own. Local tribes that had long been subjugated by the Aztecs and Incas willingly helped the Spanish. It is doubtful the Spanish would have been very successful without their help.

    I use to joke that if the Aztecs and Inca were serious about holding onto their empires they would have deployed their blue water navies to defeat the Spanish invaders at sea before they made landfall. Of course they didn't have a navy- they had no need of one. They were at the top of their food chain and knew of no external threat. They were stunted; no more real threats and no more pushing for technological advancement. What do you think they would have done had they had long-term advance notice of Europe's plans to exploit their lands? They wouldn't have sat on their hands, that is for sure.
    Alea iacta est

    Check out the blog.


  10. #38
    Points: 423,814, Level: 100
    Level completed: 0%, Points required for next Level: 0
    Overall activity: 100.0%
    Achievements:
    SocialRecommendation Second ClassYour first GroupOverdrive50000 Experience PointsTagger First ClassVeteran
    Awards:
    Discussion Ender
    Chris's Avatar Senior Member
    Karma
    392377
    Join Date
    Feb 2012
    Posts
    140,405
    Points
    423,814
    Level
    100
    Thanks Given
    13,659
    Thanked 39,945x in 29,593 Posts
    Mentioned
    1649 Post(s)
    Tagged
    2 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Who View Post
    Yes, I am answering your question. Do you think that people suddenly woke up 4,000 years ago and invented everything? No one had developed any mathematics of any kind, no one had developed any form of astronomy, no one had invented the wheel, a boat or had developed language, philosophy or religion? We've been around for 200,000 years, minimally.
    You're not answering my question. You're telling us things we know, things that can be found at Wikipedia and elsewhere. Yes, indeed, all these things emerged in our past and we know it because we have the evidence of history and archieology and anthropology and etc. But you made a claim about possible lost civilizations that we don't know about, and I asked you how they could have influenced us and what evidence you have to show that--for these unknown civilization that may or may not have existed.

    It really does come down to D's point about the meaning of discovery. Some lost, forgotten, unknown civilization might have reached America long before anyone else, but we don't know that, because it had no impact on us like Columbus's discovery has.
    Edmund Burke: "In vain you tell me that Artificial Government is good, but that I fall out only with the Abuse. The Thing! the Thing itself is the Abuse!"

  11. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to Chris For This Useful Post:

    Captdon (10-11-2018),Mister D (10-11-2018)

  12. #39
    Points: 423,814, Level: 100
    Level completed: 0%, Points required for next Level: 0
    Overall activity: 100.0%
    Achievements:
    SocialRecommendation Second ClassYour first GroupOverdrive50000 Experience PointsTagger First ClassVeteran
    Awards:
    Discussion Ender
    Chris's Avatar Senior Member
    Karma
    392377
    Join Date
    Feb 2012
    Posts
    140,405
    Points
    423,814
    Level
    100
    Thanks Given
    13,659
    Thanked 39,945x in 29,593 Posts
    Mentioned
    1649 Post(s)
    Tagged
    2 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Who View Post
    If by world, you mean European Imperialism, I agree. Other than adding to the trade goods that circulated around the world and providing more means for Europeans to wage war on other nations not directly benefiting from the looting of the Americas, I think that your use of the word 'world' is rather narrow. In the fullness of time, it certainly has altered the entire world.
    Here's the thing about history too, it doesn't include the baggage of your judgments about imperialism.
    Edmund Burke: "In vain you tell me that Artificial Government is good, but that I fall out only with the Abuse. The Thing! the Thing itself is the Abuse!"

  13. #40
    Original Ranter
    Points: 211,957, Level: 100
    Level completed: 0%, Points required for next Level: 0
    Overall activity: 73.0%
    Achievements:
    SocialRecommendation Second ClassOverdrive50000 Experience PointsVeteran
    Mister D's Avatar Senior Member
    Karma
    392209
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Posts
    84,819
    Points
    211,957
    Level
    100
    Thanks Given
    16,591
    Thanked 29,151x in 20,984 Posts
    Mentioned
    870 Post(s)
    Tagged
    1 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Who View Post
    The Aztecs and Incas were destroyed, wiped out. Yes, that was an important event although one that shouldn't be celebrated.
    But they were imperialist peoples who happened to lose. They weren't saints. Anyway, that's not what I'm talking about. The Columbian Exchange and the advent of truly global system (indeed, the modern world) is the topic. It's not a matter of celebrating it although men like Columbus had incredible courage. It's a matter of its historical significance. His discovery of America is of the greatest significance. Easily one of the most critical events of the last millennium.
    Whoever criticizes capitalism, while approving immigration, whose working class is its first victim, had better shut up. Whoever criticizes immigration, while remaining silent about capitalism, should do the same.


    ~Alain de Benoist


+ Reply to Thread

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts


Critical Acclaim
Single Sign On provided by vBSSO