Goodbye, Columbus Day

[Dr. Who]

The only problem with your entire argument is you don't know who those lost civilizations might have been to even begin to acknowlege them. You lament the loss of something you imagine.

Archaeologists continue to discover more and more about these civilizations that you seem to want to dismiss as irrelevant. What the Aztecs and Incas may have contributed to the world was mostly lost. What we do know is that they were not primitive peoples. The Aztecs had very evolved mathematics and medicine that we are still learning from. Aztec education was an important part of their culture. The Aztecs were very advanced scientific thinkers and mathematicians. The Aztec number system was far more advanced than other cultures at the time. In addition, Aztec science relied heavily on math, reflected in the design of their calendar. Aztec astronomy was also an important component of their calendar, which reflected heavily on their gods.

European invaders were impressed with the 10,000 miles of paved roads of the Incas along with their metal works, stonework, and cloth. Their buildings were constructed from huge stone blocks fitted so precisely that no mortar was needed to hold them together, many of which have withstood countless earthquakes and continue to stand to this day.

Both cultures had sophisticated farming methods and while the function of the wheel had not escaped them, not having any indigenous beasts of burden, it was relegated to use in toys. What they could have contributed to global knowledge is mostly lost except for bits and pieces being unearthed save for the few human remnants of their societies who have handed down some of that medicinal knowledge within families.

All ancient civilizations were not so utterly decimated in a few short years, but rather their peoples migrated, carrying their knowledge and traditions with them to new civilizations repeatedly throughout time. To believe otherwise is rather obtuse.

[Common]

Many scholars are highly attached to maintaining the historical (European) status quo. People were traversing even greater distances by sea in the distant past. The distance between S. America and Africa is ridiculously short. To assume that neither Africans nor S. American's could have sailed across is silly. The distance from Scandinavia to Newfoundland is not much shorter and the Vikings were not exactly an advanced society . The N. Atlantic trip would have been far more perilous. Evidence of African artifacts have been found all over S. America. This simply doesn't fit a certain Eurocentric view of history.

Then why when those areas were discovered there werent any africans, and why couldnt someone have brought those artifacts from africa when they discovered africa.

Same thing with America why is it there were no africans here, just indians.

Much of anciet history is someones hypothesis and theory, they constantly find new information that blows the written in concrete stuff out the window.

Whoever discovered america didnt do anything with it, it took until the Mayflower got her for it to be settled.

Yes Im aware the indians got screwed, but they werent developing the country. They couldnt build houses or any structures other than rudimentary stuff, it took the english to do that.

[Dr. Who]

The man has been dead for 500 years. What on Earth are you talking about?



I don't think you're particularly noble or altruistic either but what I think of you is about as relevant as what you think of Columbus'. So much for courage? Who, you ride a subway to work. He embarked on a trip he may very well have never returned from. I'm sorry but this is one of your sillier moments. Columbus wasn't courageous...I mean seriously? Men like Columbus were the astronauts of the 15th and 16th Century except there was no calling Houston. He was avaricious for expecting compensation? What?

BTW, the Spanish Crown didn't think too much of the enterprise and took a lot of convincing. They didn't pay much attention to what was happening in the new found lands because they had more important matters to attend to.


You're struggling with concepts here. You really need to stop Googling. It's not helping. Pro tip: Hispaniola is part of North America but that's not what "America" in this context. It refers to all of North, South and Central America. It was because of his voyages that this entire landmass came to the attention is the rest of the world. The rest is irrelevant to his historical significance.



See pro-tip and further notes above. Please remember them.

Please - despite the technical fact that the Caribbean is considered a part of N. America, to Columbus there was no massive land mass to the North. Give me a break.

FYI I don't ride the subway to work. That has zero to do with anything because I am not advocating my own name as a courageous individual.

Columbus didn't want to be poor. He was a sailor, a master navigator, if you will. The only way for him to get rich in a society chock a block with other master navigators was to do something spectacular. He needed investors to realize his ambitions. Courageous - not really. The courageous were those who manned the warships that were frequently blasted into nonexistence. Life was rather cheap back then. Go big or go home. He could have piloted commercial ships for a day's wage and died in a storm or at the hands of some other nation, or gambled on his (as we know imperfect) theory of a shortcut to India. He was ambitious, not courageous.

He was no latter-day astronaut since none of the current day astronauts became billionaires for their service. They were and are just state employees with dreams of going to space and willing to risk their lives for the honor of being chosen. No agreement that they get to keep 10% of everything of value they find.

The accidental discovery of the Americas doesn't make Columbus honorable nor worthy of adulation. Rename Columbus day to discovery day and at least it won't be heaping honors on a dishonorable individual who's behavior post discovery was equal to the most monstrous and reviled dictators in human history.

[Mister D]

Archaeologists continue to discover more and more about these civilizations that you seem to want to dismiss as irrelevant. What the Aztecs and Incas may have contributed to the world was mostly lost. What we do know is that they were not primitive peoples. The Aztecs had very evolved mathematics and medicine that we are still learning from. Aztec education was an important part of their culture. The Aztecs were very advanced scientific thinkers and mathematicians. The Aztec number system was far more advanced than other cultures at the time. In addition, Aztec science relied heavily on math, reflected in the design of their calendar. Aztec astronomy was also an important component of their calendar, which reflected heavily on their gods.

European invaders were impressed with the 10,000 miles of paved roads of the Incas along with their metal works, stonework, and cloth. Their buildings were constructed from huge stone blocks fitted so precisely that no mortar was needed to hold them together, many of which have withstood countless earthquakes and continue to stand to this day.

Both cultures had sophisticated farming methods and while the function of the wheel had not escaped them, not having any indigenous beasts of burden, it was relegated to use in toys. What they could have contributed to global knowledge is mostly lost except for bits and pieces being unearthed save for the few human remnants of their societies who have handed down some of that medicinal knowledge within families.

All ancient civilizations were not so utterly decimated in a few short years, but rather their peoples migrated, carrying their knowledge and traditions with them to new civilizations repeatedly throughout time. To believe otherwise is rather obtuse.

We know a lot about the Aztecs and Inca. They weren't lost civilizations. You're not really addressing the question.

[Mister D]

Please - despite the technical fact that the Caribbean is considered a part of N. America, to Columbus there was no massive land mass to the North. Give me a break.

FYI I don't ride the subway to work. That has zero to do with anything because I am not advocating my own name as a courageous individual.

Columbus didn't want to be poor. He was a sailor, a master navigator, if you will. The only way for him to get rich in a society chock a block with other master navigators was to do something spectacular. He needed investors to realize his ambitions. Courageous - not really. The courageous were those who manned the warships that were frequently blasted into nonexistence. Life was rather cheap back then. Go big or go home. He could have piloted commercial ships for a day's wage and died in a storm or at the hands of some other nation, or gambled on his (as we know imperfect) theory of a shortcut to India. He was ambitious, not courageous.

He was no latter-day astronaut since none of the current day astronauts became billionaires for their service. They were and are just state employees with dreams of going to space and willing to risk their lives for the honor of being chosen. No agreement that they get to keep 10% of everything of value they find.

The accidental discovery of the Americas doesn't make Columbus honorable nor worthy of adulation. Rename Columbus day to discovery day and at least it won't be heaping honors on a dishonorable individual who's behavior post discovery was equal to the most monstrous and reviled dictators in human history.

This is why I sometimes accuse you of posting in bad faith. You know what you claimed. As I demonstrated, it was wrong for two reasons: 1) Columbus landed in North America and 2) "America" does not mean North America in this context but the New World generally. As for your next move, Columbus did not need to make landfall anywhere else. His voyage to Hispaniola was enough to kindle interest in what else was out there. Again, Columbus' voyages brought the New World to the attention of the Old. Fact. This is not in serious dispute.

I don't care how you get to work. The point of course is that Columbus had more balls than anyone you've ever met in your life.

Your rants about his character are of no interest. Anyway, Columbus was both ambitious and courageous. To suggest that early explorers like Columbus were not courageous is just plain silly.

Columbus did not die a wealthy man but it would not matter if he did. What he may or may not have gained is irrelevant. He was doing what no one had done before with absolutely no safety net. If something went wrong they were all likely to die. Granted, the analogy to astronauts is not perfect because Columbus and his men had far fewer resources, technology and know how but what they did have was a lot of guts.

You have a horrible habit of changing the subject when you're losing an argument. I'm not celebrating Columbus the man even when I say he's courageous. He obviously was. The point, contrary to your claims, is that Columbus did discover America and his voyages were of tremendous historical significance.

[Mister D]

I have to wonder if Dr. Who is as passionate about denouncing the behavior of her own countrymen?

[Dr. Who]

Then why when those areas were discovered there werent any africans, and why couldnt someone have brought those artifacts from africa when they discovered africa.

Same thing with America why is it there were no africans here, just indians.

Much of anciet history is someones hypothesis and theory, they constantly find new information that blows the written in concrete stuff out the window.

Whoever discovered america didnt do anything with it, it took until the Mayflower got her for it to be settled.

Yes Im aware the indians got screwed, but they werent developing the country. They couldnt build houses or any structures other than rudimentary stuff, it took the english to do that.

If you read back, Columbus and at least a dozen other explorers, including Vasco Nunez de Balboa, Lopez de Gamora, Alonzo Ponce and Fray Gregoria Garcia reported seeing "$#@!es" when they reached the New World. That is a historical fact, but not one that is readily shared in American school books. It doesn't fit the Eurocentric view of history. Africa, with the possible exception of N. Africa i.e. Egypt, is supposed to be a continent of primitive half-wits, incapable of seafaring or great civilizations, notwithstanding all manner of archaeological evidence to the contrary.

Within 100 years the Euros started importing African slaves into the Americas, so any residual people of African origin were also enslaved. No one was checking passports.

Since Columbus didn't do anything remotely worthy of honor once he was appointed the Governor of Hispanola, there is no reason to continue to continue to honor the name of a mass murderer and torturer for his navigational errors that accidentally resulted in the discovery of the Americas. He needn't be written out of the history books, but naming a day after Columbus is like naming a day after the Marquis de Sade.

[Dr. Who]

This is why I sometimes accuse you of posting in bad faith. You know what you claimed. As I demonstrated, it was wrong for two reasons: 1) Columbus landed in North America and 2) "America" does not mean North America in this context but the New World generally. As for your next move, Columbus did not need to make landfall anywhere else. His voyage to Hispaniola was enough to kindle interest in what else was out there. Again, Columbus' voyages brought the New World to the attention of the Old. Fact. This is not in serious dispute.

I don't care how you get to work. The point of course is that Columbus had more balls than anyone you've ever met in your life.

Your rants about his character are of no interest. Anyway, Columbus was both ambitious and courageous. To suggest that early explorers like Columbus were not courageous is just plain silly.

Columbus did not die a wealthy man but it would not matter if he did. What he may or may not have gained is irrelevant. He was doing what no one had done before with absolutely no safety net. If something went wrong they were all likely to die. Granted, the analogy to astronauts is not perfect because Columbus and his men had far fewer resources, technology and know how but what they did have was a lot of guts.

You have a horrible habit of changing the subject when you're losing an argument. I'm not celebrating Columbus the man even when I say he's courageous. He obviously was. The point, contrary to your claims, is that Columbus did discover America and his voyages were of tremendous historical significance.

I never changed the subject. From the beginning, I have been defending the idea that Columbus should not be honored. Bloody mindedness is not courage. Courage is acting when you are afraid. Columbus was not afraid. He was possessed with the notion of becoming great and reaping great rewards. The mark of any great psychopath. No one should honor such a person, regardless of how significant the discovery. Honoring Columbus suggests that the ends justify the means and no matter how depraved the protagonist.

[Dr. Who]

This is why I sometimes accuse you of posting in bad faith. You know what you claimed. As I demonstrated, it was wrong for two reasons: 1) Columbus landed in North America and 2) "America" does not mean North America in this context but the New World generally. As for your next move, Columbus did not need to make landfall anywhere else. His voyage to Hispaniola was enough to kindle interest in what else was out there. Again, Columbus' voyages brought the New World to the attention of the Old. Fact. This is not in serious dispute.

I don't care how you get to work. The point of course is that Columbus had more balls than anyone you've ever met in your life.

Your rants about his character are of no interest. Anyway, Columbus was both ambitious and courageous. To suggest that early explorers like Columbus were not courageous is just plain silly.

Columbus did not die a wealthy man but it would not matter if he did. What he may or may not have gained is irrelevant. He was doing what no one had done before with absolutely no safety net. If something went wrong they were all likely to die. Granted, the analogy to astronauts is not perfect because Columbus and his men had far fewer resources, technology and know how but what they did have was a lot of guts.

You have a horrible habit of changing the subject when you're losing an argument. I'm not celebrating Columbus the man even when I say he's courageous. He obviously was. The point, contrary to your claims, is that Columbus did discover America and his voyages were of tremendous historical significance.

Let's disregard the oft-spoken phrase that Columbus discovered "America" in 1492 that is inculcated in school children beginning in the 1st grade. He discovered the Caribbean and that attracted other explorers to follow suit and see what other new places this new direction provided. While he was busy countenancing human atrocities on the people of Hispaniola others mapped the rest of the Americas. "America" i.e. the N. American continent was 'discovered' by Cabot, not Columbus. Yes, it's significant in the relatively recent history of the world that the Americas were 'found' by the Europeans as a result of Columbus' ignorance, but it doesn't make him a hero. He thought Cuba was mainland China. Amerigo Vespucci was the first to suspect that it was not Asia. Columbus died before finding out that he couldn't have been further away from Asia if he tried. As it is, that has nothing to do with my issue with Columbus - he was an immoral person who would sacrifice everyone and anyone for his own gain.

[Peter1469]

Let's disregard the oft-spoken phrase that Columbus discovered "America" in 1492 that is inculcated in school children beginning in the 1st grade. He discovered the Caribbean and that attracted other explorers to follow suit and see what other new places this new direction provided. While he was busy countenancing human atrocities on the people of Hispaniola others mapped the rest of the Americas. "America" i.e. the N. American continent was 'discovered' by Cabot, not Columbus. Yes, it's significant in the relatively recent history of the world that the Americas were 'found' by the Europeans as a result of Columbus' ignorance, but it doesn't make him a hero. He thought Cuba was mainland China. Amerigo Vespucci was the first to suspect that it was not Asia. Columbus died before finding out that he couldn't have been further away from Asia if he tried. As it is, that has nothing to do with my issue with Columbus - he was an immoral person who would sacrifice everyone and anyone for his own gain.

The point is Columbus opened the New World up to the Old and history was changed forever- for good or for bad.

Columbus appears to have been a grade-A $#@!. Whether that was his natural state, or something he found to be necessary as a ship-captain I don't know. Likely the former considering how he treated the locals.

However, his character is not what people "celebrate" (I have not seen any special celebrations on Columbus Day- outside of elementary school.) What people take note of is the history changing effects of his discovery, even if by accident or pure luck.

We also need to stop judging historical figures by modern standards. In the past many if not most leaders would not stand up to modern standards. That is just the way it is.