A lesson for Socialists: Capitalism is the creative force

[Chris]

Between social democracy and fascism, well, fascism had an element of syndicalism in it--a confederation of central planners. Between those two, and nazism and communism, just different implementations of the same socialist theory.

Also, social democracy has, to some, positive connotations, fascism, to most, negative. But let's leave emotionalism out of this, lol.

[Chris]

But compared to Rand Paul, Jim DeMint, et al, they would ALL be leftists...

Which reveals just how left this country has shifted toward some form of socialism.

[Mister D]

Between social democracy and fascism, well, fascism had an element of syndicalism in it--a confederation of central planners. Between those two, and nazism and communism, just different implementations of the same socialist theory.

Also, social democracy has, to some, positive connotations, fascism, to most, negative. But let's leave emotionalism out of this, lol.

There are some philosophical diferences between the systems but what I meant state ownership of the means of production. Someone argued that socialism is characterized by state ownership of the means of production while in fascist systems the state controls the means of production. Reminds me of a quip I once heard.

Socialists will take half of your cows. The communists will take all of your cows. The fascists will let you kepp all of the cows as long as they get all the milk.

[Chris]

There are some philosophical diferences between the systems but what I meant state ownership of the means of production. Someone argued that socialism is characterized by state ownership of the means of production while in fascist systems the state controls the means of production. Reminds me of a quip I once heard.

Socialists will take half of your cows. The communists will take all of your cows. The fascists will let you kepp all of the cows as long as they get all the milk.

Historically, Mises, Hayek and the Austrian School of Economics had proven socialism couldn't work because of the economic calculation problem and the problem of knowledge in society, so facism and nazism turned from owning to controlling capitalism, while the theorists argued on. It was during the 90s socialist finally conceded and you see social democracy emerge in Europe and now, as that too fails in Europe, in the US. Fascism and nazism were violent, social democracy deceptively peaceful.

[Chris]

I'll add that fascism was haphazard, ad hoc, buffoonery, a model of government run amok, forces no one could control that simply got out of hand. See John T Flynn's history of it, As We Go marching (.pdf).

[Mister D]

Nazism certainly was. True, fascism was a reaction in some sense.

[nic34]

Which reveals just how left this country has shifted toward some form of socialism.

You're kidding, right?

Obama, Clinton socialism? LOL

Give me the good ol' days of FDR, RFK and McGovern

[Chris]

You're kidding, right?

Obama, Clinton socialism? LOL

Give me the good ol' days of FDR, RFK and McGovern

Social democrats, nic, aren't you reading the discussion here? Nixon, Bush, same thing.

Define socialism, nic, then maybe we all can discuss.

[nic34]

Socialism in the USA today? Not in en-gland-istan or somewhere?

"Socialism" is what big banks and corporations do with their losses, while they generally privatize their profits for their ceos and shareholders at the expense of the workers that make all that wealth possible in the first place.

It is also what the government tries to do providing a "safety net" for the infirm, less fortunate and our military veterans. Oh, and the military industrial complex....

Encompasses the beliefs of most of the repub party and a large swath of dems.

Not that difficult really.

[Chris]

Socialism in the USA today? Not in en-gland-istan or somewhere?

"Socialism" is what big banks and corporations do with their losses, while they generally privatize their profits for their ceos and shareholders at the expense of the workers that make all that wealth possible in the first place.

It is also what the government tries to do providing a "safety net" for the infirm, less fortunate and our military veterans. Oh, and the military industrial complex....

Encompasses the beliefs of most of the repub party and a large swath of dems.

Not that difficult really.

Actually, nic, social democracy, in American, borrowed from Europe, where it's failing--see above discussion.

"Socialism" is what big banks and corporations do with their losses, while they generally privatize their profits for their ceos and shareholders at the expense of the workers that make all that wealth possible in the first place.

Sorry, but this makes no economic sense, what business does with their gains and losses is their business. There is no coercion there. --Your plaint is standard socialist cant though. I'll bet you accept a labor theory of value.

Here's a brief definition of socialism: central planning.

Longer: central planning in the redistribution of wealth, through taxation and regulation, downward as social welfare or by means of democratic socialism, or upward if not simply maintaining status quo as corporate welfare or by means of conservative socialism.

It is also what the government tries to do providing a "safety net" for the infirm, less fortunate and our military veterans. Oh, and the military industrial complex....

OK, yes, that fits what I just said.

Encompasses the beliefs of most of the repub party and a large swath of dems.

You really need to lose that old dichotomy, I mean if Reps and Dems are virtually alike in this regard there's no dichotomy to speak of. Escape that single dimension for a two dimensional model with left/right the X axis and liberty/authority the Y axis.