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Thread: Greece, Prostitution, and the Sad Consequences of Democratic Socialism

  1. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chris View Post
    Wow, the shadow economy in Greece outpaces its GDP. Shadow economy? Free market...that, of course, does not exist.


    This is always a sticking point with socialists. Socialism, being an individualistic product of the Enlightenment is all about personal freedom. Well, here are people under a socialist regime choosing to circumvent it and engage in free black market trade. And yet, Dr Who, champion of social democracy, criticizes and blames their choice.

    I have always argued that under a libertarian social order, it people choose socialism or some other form of statism, that it would be their right and free choice.
    Tradition is not the worship of ashes, but the preservation of fire. ― Gustav Mahler

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    Similar story in Venezuela: In the wake of socialism, Venezuela’s black-market capitalists meet community needs

    The Venezuelan people continue to struggle and suffer under the weight of severe socialist policies—facing increased poverty and hunger, swelling suicide rates, and widespread social unrest.

    Yet even as its president admits to a nationwide economic emergency, the government continues to celebrate the very drivers behind the collapse, blaming low oil prices and “global capitalism,” instead.

    Meanwhile, amid the turmoil and desperation, Venezuela’s local capitalism is beginning to emerge as a solution to the woes of socialism. According to Patricia Laya at Bloomberg, the country is seeing a renewed movement of ground-up creativity and experimentation geared toward rebuilding after the destruction of top-down control and mismanagement.

    “Hyperinflation and scarcity have the Bolivarian revolution’s socialist heart pulsing with entrepreneurship,” writes Laya. “Desperate citizens are eking out a living with ventures such as digging home water wells, bartering bananas for haircuts and transporting commuters in animal-cargo trucks. The economy’s erosion has created markets and market players where none existed.”

    Laya highlights several of the country’s burgeoning black-market entrepreneurs, many of whom repair or restore broken or used goods and resell them for a profit. Although the government hoped to snuff out independent industry, the effect is quite opposite. As economist Omar Zambrano explains in the article, “This Draconian effort to expand the state’s influence over any and every circle of life and business has created a black market for everything it touches.”

    ...
    Tradition is not the worship of ashes, but the preservation of fire. ― Gustav Mahler

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    kilgram's Avatar Senior Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chris View Post
    Seriously, that happens when there are lack of products, and it does not happens to socialism alone. Greece during the crisis was governed by a conservative government that lied to a everybody, and during the last 30 years were governed by capitalists in essence.

    And, about the lack of products, Spain during Franco also had it. And he was not socialist at all. The problem is not the socialism, is other thing. If you are not able to see that due to all the lack of variety of sources and only reading the biased sources that confirm your belief without questioning them, is not my problem and I won't do your job to look for sources to prove all the nonsense mentioned in this thread wrong. Just to point, that it is pure propaganda and if something resembles to reality is pure casuality.
    WORK AND FIGHT FOR THE REVOLUTION AND AGAINST THE INJUSTICE.

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    Greece is the perfect example of what happens when the government becomes too large. But even when reality is staring them in the face, they will never admit the truth. They will always find someone or something else to blame aside from the obvious.
    Power always thinks it has a great soul, and vast views, beyond the comprehension of the weak. And that it is doing God service when it is violating all His laws.
    --John Adams

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Who View Post
    Couldn't be because the Greek self-employed and small business are big-time tax evaders, or that Greece has twice as many self-employed as the European average:
    https://www.dianeosis.org/en/2016/06...ion-in-greece/
    https://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-33479946
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corruption_in_Greece
    The higher the tax burden, the more tax evasion there will be. It's almost as if people feel entitled to keep their own money or something. If only they would realize, that money doesn't actually belong to them, but to the government. Then perhaps they would be more willing to part with it.
    Power always thinks it has a great soul, and vast views, beyond the comprehension of the weak. And that it is doing God service when it is violating all His laws.
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    Quote Originally Posted by kilgram View Post
    Seriously, that happens when there are lack of products, and it does not happens to socialism alone. Greece during the crisis was governed by a conservative government that lied to a everybody, and during the last 30 years were governed by capitalists in essence.

    And, about the lack of products, Spain during Franco also had it. And he was not socialist at all. The problem is not the socialism, is other thing. If you are not able to see that due to all the lack of variety of sources and only reading the biased sources that confirm your belief without questioning them, is not my problem and I won't do your job to look for sources to prove all the nonsense mentioned in this thread wrong. Just to point, that it is pure propaganda and if something resembles to reality is pure casuality.

    There's a lack of products because socialism failed them. Where's the lack of products in the US?

    Facism is on the left. They might be called right collectivists opposed to left collectivist communists, but both were the left.
    Tradition is not the worship of ashes, but the preservation of fire. ― Gustav Mahler

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ethereal View Post
    The higher the tax burden, the more tax evasion there will be. It's almost as if people feel entitled to keep their own money or something. If only they would realize, that money doesn't actually belong to them, but to the government. Then perhaps they would be more willing to part with it.
    It wouldn't be a problem if the Greeks didn't also feel that they should be heavily subsidized. It's the combination that's bad.
    In quoting my post, you affirm and agree that you have not been goaded, provoked, emotionally manipulated or otherwise coerced into responding.



    "The difference between what we do and what we are capable of doing would suffice to solve most of the world’s problems.”
    Mahatma Gandhi

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    Quote Originally Posted by kilgram View Post
    Ok, biased sources that don't grasp the situation. I remember you that the government in Greece was conservative, also Greece had to take measures that went against Greek interests when the Troika forced them to reduce socail inversions, affecting negatively to the society. But, yeah, that was fault of socialism. Reductionism at max, mainly becaue Greece has never been socialist at all.

    And it is very funny to read the mises article. 150 years of failure xD HAHAHAA. What a $#@!ing nonsense, just the title is blatantly stupid and wrong.

    I remind you that Greece has not have had a socialist government in its history. And their last government was conservative, and then a government that tried to apply some socialist policies but ended applying more conservative and liberal policies, rather socialist. So, was the fault of socialism? Really? No, it was not.
    So what should we call it when the government takes money from one person and redistributes it to another? What is "conservative" about a massive pension system that relies on extracting wealth from the private sector?
    Power always thinks it has a great soul, and vast views, beyond the comprehension of the weak. And that it is doing God service when it is violating all His laws.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Who View Post
    It wouldn't be a problem if the Greeks didn't also feel that they should be heavily subsidized. It's the combination that's bad.
    That seems like a distinction without a difference.

    The reason so many in Greece evade their taxes is because so many in Greece feel entitled to a subsidy.

    I read that average government worker in Greece makes 38% more money than their counterparts in the private sector.

    I also read that by 2050, there will be one private sector worker per pensioner in Greece.

    That basically represents financial enslavement.

    So, yeah, lots of Greeks are probably evading taxes, but that is not the real problem with Greece's economic situation. It is merely a symptom of a much larger problem relating to bloated government and the corrupt racketeering that goes along with it.
    Power always thinks it has a great soul, and vast views, beyond the comprehension of the weak. And that it is doing God service when it is violating all His laws.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ethereal View Post
    That seems like a distinction without a difference.

    The reason so many in Greece evade their taxes is because so many in Greece feel entitled to a subsidy.

    I read that average government worker in Greece makes 38% more money than their counterparts in the private sector.

    I also read that by 2050, there will be one private sector worker per pensioner in Greece.

    That basically represents financial enslavement.

    So, yeah, lots of Greeks are probably evading taxes, but that is not the real problem with Greece's economic situation. It is merely a symptom of a much larger problem relating to bloated government and the corrupt racketeering that goes along with it.
    Well of course corruption in government is an extra added attraction. Greece has had problems for many years - a little bit worse than Italy, but the 2008 financial crisis just removed all doubt. It killed some of the business that was paying taxes and was followed by a lot of self-employed but under the table business. Having a corrupt government just makes it all worse, when you get to the last straw. Still, the Greek people need to decide what they want because social democracy doesn't work without a full buy-in by the population and it doesn't work with politicians taking graft and a grey business market.
    In quoting my post, you affirm and agree that you have not been goaded, provoked, emotionally manipulated or otherwise coerced into responding.



    "The difference between what we do and what we are capable of doing would suffice to solve most of the world’s problems.”
    Mahatma Gandhi

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    kilgram (11-02-2018)

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