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Thread: Greece, Prostitution, and the Sad Consequences of Democratic Socialism

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    Greeks problems have been long coming, their pension system is free to govt workers, in the USA the cost is shared 50/50 for Police and other govt workers, in greece Police and govt workers pay nothing, that cant work long term. Some Greeks get meager pensions in the private sector.

    Some years ago greek leaders were going to cut pensions for govt workers there were riots and they backed off and that of course made matters worse.
    Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedies.

    GROUCHO MARX,

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    kilgram's Avatar Senior Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chris View Post
    There's a lack of products because socialism failed them. Where's the lack of products in the US?

    Facism is on the left. They might be called right collectivists opposed to left collectivist communists, but both were the left.
    Fascism is on the right. Always has been.

    The lack of products happens when there is no money. And it can happen in capitalist countries, too. And Greece has never been socialist. It is a fact. Lying about that won't bring any profit.
    WORK AND FIGHT FOR THE REVOLUTION AND AGAINST THE INJUSTICE.

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    Quote Originally Posted by kilgram View Post
    Fascism is on the right. Always has been.

    The lack of products happens when there is no money. And it can happen in capitalist countries, too. And Greece has never been socialist. It is a fact. Lying about that won't bring any profit.

    Once more, at the time, between the WWs, socialism was divided between internationalists and nationalists. Both were anti-liberalism, anti-democracy, anti-capitalism.

    No money is what happens under socialism. It can happen under capitalism when the government interferes too much in the market and turns natural business cycles into recessions and depressions.

    Are you going to quibble there's a serious difference between social democracy and socialism?
    Edmund Burke: "In vain you tell me that Artificial Government is good, but that I fall out only with the Abuse. The Thing! the Thing itself is the Abuse!"

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    Quote Originally Posted by Chris View Post
    Once more, at the time, between the WWs, socialism was divided between internationalists and nationalists. Both were anti-liberalism, anti-democracy, anti-capitalism.

    No money is what happens under socialism. It can happen under capitalism when the government interferes too much in the market and turns natural business cycles into recessions and depressions.

    Are you going to quibble there's a serious difference between social democracy and socialism?
    Chris, recessions and depressions are natural to capitalism, not due interfernce of government.

    And, absolutely not. Socialism is internationalist. Trying to associate fascism to the soicalism movements is absolutely wrong, when fascism has always been used as the alternative weapon of the corporations to control the society.

    Fascism is populism in its most extremist form. Yes, it used some of the imagery of the left, for example, colors of the flags, red and black. However, they were absolutey the opposite to it. Those movements were corporativists in its most extremist form. They were absolutely the opposite to the socialism, where they want to democratize the economy, making that the means of productions be in the hands of the workers, absolutely the opposite to the fascism that kept the status quo and the corporations had extreme power.

    It is like saying that anarcho capitalism is anarchy, when it is not. The same, applies to the nazis, for much that they are self-called National-Sozialist, they are not socialists, they are coporativists, and have more in common with the right and alter-right, than with the left.

    And, by the way, socialism, yes, is anticapitalist but socialism, is not anti democracy. Moreover, socialism cannot work without democracy. Socialism cannot be totalitarian.

    And, the last sentence, absolutely there is difference between social democracy and socialism. Social democracy is a form of capitalism. A capitalism that gives some of the scraps from capitalism to the rest of the people. when in pure liberalism, even the scraps are denied. That is the difference.

    In Europe, we have social democracy and it works. The problem of Greece was not the social democracy. The problem of Greece was another one. It was the lack of industry, high level of corruption, and liberal governments that applied measures that would destroy even more the already Greek economy. For example raising indirect taxes, reducing social programs,... It brought more misery, as it would be obvious for anyone. And all those measures were done by a conservative government, not a socialist one.

    Yes, you can tell me, that raise indirect taxes is not a liberal policies. However, the fact, is that what the books say to what the liberals apply there is a mountain of difference. I have not known any conservative government that has not raised taxes to the poorer, starting from Reagan to Thatcher to the past government of Rajoy in Spain. Moreover, the conservative and liberals that I have met are the corruption, hipocresy and evil in person. This is the reason, I dismiss anything coming from the apprentices of Mises, Hayek and rest of members of the trash of the society.
    WORK AND FIGHT FOR THE REVOLUTION AND AGAINST THE INJUSTICE.

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    Quote Originally Posted by kilgram View Post
    Chris, recessions and depressions are natural to capitalism, not due interfernce of government.

    And, absolutely not. Socialism is internationalist. Trying to associate fascism to the soicalism movements is absolutely wrong, when fascism has always been used as the alternative weapon of the corporations to control the society.

    Fascism is populism in its most extremist form. Yes, it used some of the imagery of the left, for example, colors of the flags, red and black. However, they were absolutey the opposite to it. Those movements were corporativists in its most extremist form. They were absolutely the opposite to the socialism, where they want to democratize the economy, making that the means of productions be in the hands of the workers, absolutely the opposite to the fascism that kept the status quo and the corporations had extreme power.

    It is like saying that anarcho capitalism is anarchy, when it is not. The same, applies to the nazis, for much that they are self-called National-Sozialist, they are not socialists, they are coporativists, and have more in common with the right and alter-right, than with the left.

    And, by the way, socialism, yes, is anticapitalist but socialism, is not anti democracy. Moreover, socialism cannot work without democracy. Socialism cannot be totalitarian.

    And, the last sentence, absolutely there is difference between social democracy and socialism. Social democracy is a form of capitalism. A capitalism that gives some of the scraps from capitalism to the rest of the people. when in pure liberalism, even the scraps are denied. That is the difference.

    In Europe, we have social democracy and it works. The problem of Greece was not the social democracy. The problem of Greece was another one. It was the lack of industry, high level of corruption, and liberal governments that applied measures that would destroy even more the already Greek economy. For example raising indirect taxes, reducing social programs,... It brought more misery, as it would be obvious for anyone. And all those measures were done by a conservative government, not a socialist one.

    Yes, you can tell me, that raise indirect taxes is not a liberal policies. However, the fact, is that what the books say to what the liberals apply there is a mountain of difference. I have not known any conservative government that has not raised taxes to the poorer, starting from Reagan to Thatcher to the past government of Rajoy in Spain. Moreover, the conservative and liberals that I have met are the corruption, hipocresy and evil in person. This is the reason, I dismiss anything coming from the apprentices of Mises, Hayek and rest of members of the trash of the society.

    The business cycle has natural highs and lows. Government meddling amplfies those into recessions and depressions. I can explain in detail if you like.

    Right, no communism is internationalist, fascism nationalist, both are forms of socialism. What, a small communist commune can't be socialist because of...size?

    Communism is anti-democracy. What democracy existed in the USSR? China? N Korea? Each instance in history has turned to totalitarianism.

    This gets tiresome because all you do is make declarations.

    You have social democracy--ok, what do you mean? Greece was not--what do you mean? The OP gives a definition. A standard one in economics, central planning.

    Liberals? Classical? Modern European? Modern American? What?
    Edmund Burke: "In vain you tell me that Artificial Government is good, but that I fall out only with the Abuse. The Thing! the Thing itself is the Abuse!"

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    "In Europe, we have social democracy and it works."

    Earlier this year: Who killed European social democracy?

    Social democracy, the most influential force in European politics for decades, is dying. And the result could be political fragmentation, instability and paralysis.

    In recent months, social democratic parties have been swept from power in the Czech Republic, Austria, France and the Netherlands, adding to a long string of losses since 2010.



    On Sunday, Italy’s Democratic Party is likely to perform poorly in the national election, finishing behind former Prime Minister Silvio Berlusconi’s right-wing coalition and the anti-establishment 5Star Movement. Among the EU28, that would leave only Malta, Romania, Portugal, Slovakia and Sweden under social democratic leadership.

    Meanwhile, the membership of Germany’s once-dominant Social Democratic Party, still reeling from their humiliating collapse in September’s election, is voting on another grand coalition with Angela Merkel’s conservatives.

    ...Since World War II, social democracy has stood, along with the center right, as one of the twin pillars of European democracy. Its decline, accompanied by the sharp rise of populists on both the right and left, will likely leave the Continent’s politics neither stable nor predictable.

    ...
    Edmund Burke: "In vain you tell me that Artificial Government is good, but that I fall out only with the Abuse. The Thing! the Thing itself is the Abuse!"

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    Quote Originally Posted by Chris View Post
    The business cycle has natural highs and lows. Government meddling amplfies those into recessions and depressions. I can explain in detail if you like.

    Right, no communism is internationalist, fascism nationalist, both are forms of socialism. What, a small communist commune can't be socialist because of...size?

    Communism is anti-democracy. What democracy existed in the USSR? China? N Korea? Each instance in history has turned to totalitarianism.

    This gets tiresome because all you do is make declarations.

    You have social democracy--ok, what do you mean? Greece was not--what do you mean? The OP gives a definition. A standard one in economics, central planning.

    Liberals? Classical? Modern European? Modern American? What?
    I don't read nonsense from disciples of Mises. And they can define anything, but their definitions are not standard in any way. Their definitions are far from standard. Their definitions are fringe definitions.
    It also gets tiresome, read the same rubbish. So, bye. Just to point, this thread is pure rubbish, and is based on false premises from the first point. And from those first premises creates a narrative. And how it starts from a false point, everything is wrong.
    WORK AND FIGHT FOR THE REVOLUTION AND AGAINST THE INJUSTICE.

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    Quote Originally Posted by kilgram View Post
    I don't read nonsense from disciples of Mises. And they can define anything, but their definitions are not standard in any way. Their definitions are far from standard. Their definitions are fringe definitions.
    It also gets tiresome, read the same rubbish. So, bye. Just to point, this thread is pure rubbish, and is based on false premises from the first point. And from those first premises creates a narrative. And how it starts from a false point, everything is wrong.
    You were asked some simple questions and given the stage.
    Edmund Burke: "In vain you tell me that Artificial Government is good, but that I fall out only with the Abuse. The Thing! the Thing itself is the Abuse!"

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    Quote Originally Posted by Chris View Post
    We gave capitalism and socialism a whirl so let's give democratic socialism, or is it social democracy, a turn.

    Greece, Prostitution, and the Sad Consequences of Democratic Socialism

    Agreed that the prostitute would be worse off if the trade was illegal. Secondly how many american dollars is 17 Euros

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    Quote Originally Posted by Chris View Post
    We gave capitalism and socialism a whirl so let's give democratic socialism, or is it social democracy, a turn.

    Greece, Prostitution, and the Sad Consequences of Democratic Socialism

    Socialism owns no monopoly on big, useless government

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