Would God Lie?

[Mister D]

I'm not interested in defeating your objection. I don't say that with malice.


Wow, I had a lot more to say on the subject than I thought I wanted to. I've been over and over this for years and the arguments remain static on all sides of the coin.

No malice perceived.
In its present formulation it's just a bad argument. Best not to say much, quite frankly.

[Captdon]

The people who today are called jews are not the Hebrew of the Old Testament and do not practice the religion of the Hebrew```

The Orthodox do.

[Captdon]

I think that God as human construct is pretty much the point of the story, C.O. Every society describes and worships the god that they "need", the god that fits in best with their dominant culture, and - most pertinent here - the god that they are, to some extent, capable of understanding. You say that people "aren't blind and think a lot deeper than that". Compared with what? Assume for a minute that an intelligent, omniscient and eternal being does exist; what is the human brain, Man's senses and all of our knowledge of the universe compared with that? We're talking an ant tbrying to figure out how a jet engine works, and then some.

We aren't trying to figure out God at all. That's an intellectual exercise. I have faith. I don't try to understand God nor do I need to. I'm curious but no more than that. I don't have the capability to understand god bi=ut here i am in the dominant culture.

[Standing Wolf]

Taking our own culture as an example it's quite clear that Christianity transformed the "dominant culture" in important ways. Assuming I understand you correctly, I would suggest your perspective is not just simplistic but demonstrably wrong.

Of course it's a two-way street; the Faith and its dogmas are shaped by the culture in which they are formed, and then, over time, have some effect on the secular culture. What is irrefutable, however, is the fact that cultural accretion occurs - from the secular culture onto the doctrines and practices of the new religion - both at the beginning and especially in subsequent centuries.

A society's God is invariably in favor of what the followers of that God's religion are in favor of, and disapproves of what they disapprove of. Over time, the religion's hierarchy adds to the list of things that are said to be "God's will" according to what they want the people to believe, do or reject. If the religious leaders want to ensure that the people don't eat a certain kind of meat that is subject to contagion, their God will forbid the eating of that meat. If the culture of the time elevates men to a certain status at the expense of women, the dictates of their God will tend to justify that attitude. If the men of a society find it desirable to take many wives, or burn witches, or utterly wipe out an enemy, or do pretty much anything else, the doctrines of their religion will either allow them or command them to do so.

[Mister D]

Of course it's a two-way street; the Faith and its dogmas are shaped by the culture in which they are formed, and then, over time, have some effect on the secular culture. What is irrefutable, however, is the fact that cultural accretion occurs - from the secular culture onto the doctrines and practices of the new religion - both at the beginning and especially in subsequent centuries.

A society's God is invariably in favor of what the followers of that God's religion are in favor of, and disapproves of what they disapprove of. Over time, the religion's hierarchy adds to the list of things that are said to be "God's will" according to what they want the people to believe, do or reject. If the religious leaders want to ensure that the people don't eat a certain kind of meat that is subject to contagion, their God will forbid the eating of that meat. If the culture of the time elevates men to a certain status at the expense of women, the dictates of their God will tend to justify that attitude. If the men of a society find it desirable to take many wives, or burn witches, or utterly wipe out an enemy, or do pretty much anything else, the doctrines of their religion will either allow them or command them to do so.

Cultural accretion certainly occurs but the cultural accretions in our particular case took place 1500 years ago when a Syrian religion encountered the Roman and Germanic worlds. In any case, what you said was that the dominant culture determines the religion followed. That's obviously not true. In significant and even crucial ways it's the other way around.

But again aren't we putting the cart before the horse? Can you give us some specific examples of "lists of things that are considered to be God's will" that are not found in the dogma? Secondly, societies don't have Gods. Faiths do. My faith is a global faith with adherents on every continent. Islam is similarly widespread. I think you drastically underestimate the formative impact of religion on culture.

Last, we have many examples where religious doctrine interfered with the desires of the powerful.

[roadmaster]

The people who today are called jews are not the Hebrew of the Old Testament and do not practice the religion of the Hebrew```

Correct they are of the Babylonian Pharisee Religion which is not of God.

[Lummy]

Be very, very careful with whom you chat over the fence.