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Thread: Are Muscular Women REALLY Men?

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    Unless you're born that way.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mister D View Post
    There is a point at which "women with muscles" look kind of gross. The magazine does not create or even reinforce our cultural predilections. It simply reflects them.
    But Williams is an athlete, and quite frankly, she is beautiful - physically, and with the messages, she sends to other women through her actions. Money where her mouth is, kind of thing.

    And if women want to get crazy muscles? Personal choice. I don't care. Same reason I don't care if a politician has an affair or whatever. None of my business.

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    Quote Originally Posted by pragmatic View Post
    Think you are over analyzing the magazine cover.

    Is what it is. She was named Woman of the Year by a men's magazine....
    I think that is why "woman" was in quotations. Or part of it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jimmyz View Post
    Serena's upper body is fit and muscular but no more so than any gym bunny. Her lower body is powerful due to the sport she has practiced since she was a young girl. Tennis stars have very powerful legs for obvious reasons. Serena doesn't portray manliness IMO. She reminds me of Beyonce in that cover photo.

    As to "kids will see it at grocery stores" and be adversely affected? I don't read that into the photo and copy on the cover. Kids aren't interested in GQ, Vogue or Cosmo anyway.
    Tennis also requires core strength and a lot of upper body strength. Williams just had a child, which may account for why she does not look the same as she did 5 or 10 years ago. Her arms were always pretty ripped.

    This is not a flattering photo of her face, but demonstrates what I mean:

    Serenawilliams.jpg

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    Quote Originally Posted by Adelaide View Post
    But Williams is an athlete, and quite frankly, she is beautiful - physically, and with the messages, she sends to other women through her actions. Money where her mouth is, kind of thing.

    And if women want to get crazy muscles? Personal choice. I don't care. Same reason I don't care if a politician has an affair or whatever. None of my business.
    Why does it matter if she's an athlete? Good for her. Play sports. Excel. If it's a woman's personal choice to look like a man then so be it. All I'm saying is that it's gross. Methinks women folk need to accept the consequences of their choices.

    Mind you, I don't make the rules. It is what it is.
    Last edited by Mister D; 11-16-2018 at 04:43 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by pragmatic View Post
    Think you are over analyzing the magazine cover.

    Is what it is. She was named Woman of the Year by a men's magazine....
    Quote Originally Posted by Adelaide View Post
    I think that is why "woman" was in quotations. Or part of it.
    Exactly. Man is crossed out. THere's also an asterisk explained at the bottom of the cover as handwriting by some artist, from what I've read it's his thing. Altogether much ado about nothing.
    Tradition is not the worship of ashes, but the preservation of fire. ― Gustav Mahler

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mister D View Post
    Why does it matter if she's an athlete? Good for her. Play sports. Excel. If it's a woman's personal choice to look like a man then so be it. All I'm saying is that it's gross. Methinks women folk need to accept the consequences of their choices.

    Mind you, I don't make the rules. It is what it is.
    Athletes work hard to achieve what they do. It's admirable, especially to become one of the best ever in that sport. It is physically and mentally hard, and something worth respecting. I don't know many people who work that hard.

    I also don't think she looks like a man. I find her to be beautiful (genuinely). There was a photo of her and her baby a while back that I found striking.

    You're totally allowed to think it's gross, but she is a female athlete. It is not as though she's body building for the sake of it or something (and I personally don't care if someone makes that choice, although I may question the health of it, especially in sports where monitoring for steroids or other substances is not the best). Williams built that body with hard work pursuing a goal. Why should she feel bad about it or be made to feel bad about it? I don't see the need for that. I just don't find it gross.

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    Maybe she's a mutant. She says she was born that way.


    Before everyone gets all crazy...

    Has she been tested for one or two inactive copies of the myostatin gene?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Adelaide View Post
    Athletes work hard to achieve what they do. It's admirable, especially to become one of the best ever in that sport. It is physically and mentally hard, and something worth respecting. I don't know many people who work that hard.

    I also don't think she looks like a man. I find her to be beautiful (genuinely). There was a photo of her and her baby a while back that I found striking.

    You're totally allowed to think it's gross, but she is a female athlete. It is not as though she's body building for the sake of it or something (and I personally don't care if someone makes that choice, although I may question the health of it, especially in sports where monitoring for steroids or other substances is not the best). Williams built that body with hard work pursuing a goal. Why should she feel bad about it or be made to feel bad about it? I don't see the need for that. I just don't find it gross.
    I'm responding more to the OP than Williams. Yes, there comes a point where a muscular body on a female is just kind of gross. Granted, men can take it too far as well but there is a far greater threshold for men. You're not a man. I don't expect you to get it. I also don't expect anyone to feel bad. Again, magazines reflect our culture. They don't create it. You want huge muscles? Knock yourself out. Why do I need to tell you it's OK? These tales of white girl woe really need to stop.
    Last edited by Mister D; 11-16-2018 at 06:35 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by IMPress Polly View Post
    *sighs*

    So the men's magazine GQ (which is owned by Vogue, for those who don't know) has recently named tennis star Serena Williams their official Woman of the Year. Here is how they chose to do so:

    Attachment 24717

    You will notice that the word woman is placed in quotation marks right above the word men, which has been crossed out. Get it? Because Serena Williams has muscles, she is therefore 'basically male'? Har har?

    It's hardly a new issue for Williams. Last year, she wrote in a letter to her mom on Reddit, among other things: "I've been called man because I appeared outwardly strong. It has been said that that I use drugs (No, I have always had far too much integrity to behave dishonestly in order to gain an advantage). It has been said I don't belong in Women's sports—that I belong in Men's—because I look stronger than many other women do. (No, I just work hard and I was born with this badass body and proud of it)."

    Apologists for the magazine (such as the good people at Vice) have, of course, contrived excuses for what is a very simple and clear-cut case of misogynistic sex-stereotyping (e.g. it's just a signature of the designer to use quotation marks, maybe Williams approved it, etc. etc.), but the fact is that none of that $#@! matters because what you see above is what men and women, boys and girls, strolling through the check-out line or scanning the magazine racks at their local grocery store are going to see and that's it, and they are going to learn something about what 'proper womanhood' is instantly from it. Specifically, they are going to learn that real women are not champions, that real women are not muscular or strong, and that Serena Williams is an insult to her sex. If you fail to be frail it's because you are male. Any girl or woman who has muscles or just isn't the most traditionally feminine in general (as yours truly) is going to be hurt badly and those who attack and ridicule those who are in any way, on any level, gender-nonconforming are going to be emboldened to do so all the more. This obvious jab will be one more thing, further, that helps discourage women from pursuing sports as a profession or achievement more generally.

    Like men's publications in general, GQ has never been known for their feminist attitudes, but this seems especially backward and harmful to me. What do you think?
    Honestly, that wasn't my first impression looking at the magazine cover. I just assumed it was some kind of reference to the fact that GQ normally features men in its analytical pieces. Crossing out "men" and replacing it with "woman" could actually be interpreted as empowering to the woman. I suppose it is possible that your interpretation is the correct one, since I have no idea what was in the minds of the people who made that cover, but I doubt that was their intent given the nature of profit-seeking corporations in the current political environment.

    Edit: Looking back on it, I did not notice the quotation marks around woman. I guess that is pretty odd. If they really are trying to take a jab at her womanhood, then that is in incredibly bad taste and just downright stupid from a business perspective.
    Last edited by Ethereal; 11-16-2018 at 06:41 PM.
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