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Thread: Mises on Fascism

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    One question, how much power did corporate groups, such as agricultural, labour, military, scientific, or guild associations, have?
    Tradition is not the worship of ashes, but the preservation of fire. ― Gustav Mahler

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mister D View Post
    We could say the same for FDR and his comments about fascism but some of us don't rush to point that out.
    Huh?

    In any case, it's irrelevant.
    What's irrelevant?

    If by contradistinction you mean that fascism served as a safeguard against socialism and communism, yes.
    What else could I have meant?

    Yes, that might be true but that's not the point. It appears that the Left's perception of fascism as a reactionary and ultimately liberal, bourgeois movement was shared by the right or at least shared by Mises.
    I don't see how you arrived at that conclusion. It seems pretty clear that Mises considered both fascism and Bolshevism to be highly illiberal. The fact that he considered fascism a lesser evil does not imply that fascism is somehow a "liberal, bourgeois movement". Nowhere in that quote did I read anything approaching those words.
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    Quote Originally Posted by kilgram View Post
    Exactly that it was fascism. As it has been many times, fascism is the liberal reaction to keep the market.
    Fascism is national socialism. And the most infamous proponent of fascism in Europe - Hitler - was overly hostile towards international capitalism, which he considered to be a Jewish conspiracy.

    The only meaningful differences between you and a fascist like Hitler is that you're not a racist and you're not a nationalist. Other than that, you're basically the same - that is, you're both collectivists and authoritarians.

    Fascism never has been anti-market, fascism is corporatavist. Corporations and business are the most important thing for them.
    That's not what corporatism is. And when the fascists took power in Italy and Germany, they were quick to impose controls on the market. National SOCIALISM demands it.
    Power always thinks it has a great soul, and vast views, beyond the comprehension of the weak. And that it is doing God service when it is violating all His laws.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ethereal View Post
    Huh?



    What's irrelevant?



    What else could I have meant?



    I don't see how you arrived at that conclusion. It seems pretty clear that Mises considered both fascism and Bolshevism to be highly illiberal. The fact that he considered fascism a lesser evil does not imply that fascism is somehow a "liberal, bourgeois movement". Nowhere in that quote did I read anything approaching those words.
    When he wrote it is irrelevant and, like I said, no one rushes to tell us that FDR made positive comments about fascism before the war.

    Then you were restating what was obvious. OK. I wasn't sure.

    It seems patently obvious that Mises perceived fascism as a liberal reaction to the crisis of capitalism. He was of course wrong but my only intention here was to remark upon the similarity between reactions to fascism across the spectrum.
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    With liberalism (individualiasm + democracy + capitalism) failing at the time, given the Great Depression and all, it’s easy to see why even Mises saw fascism possibly succeeding in the west by force with communism rising in the east.
    Tradition is not the worship of ashes, but the preservation of fire. ― Gustav Mahler

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    Quote Originally Posted by kilgram View Post
    Of course that liberals will support fascism.
    No, liberals do not support fascism. Fascism is a form of socialism, not liberalism.

    That is a fact.
    No, it's not a fact. It's just your uninformed opinion.

    For some reason I hate Hayek and company and I consider them miserables.
    You hate anyone who believes in the legitimacy of private property rights. The concept of economic liberty is anathema to you.
    Power always thinks it has a great soul, and vast views, beyond the comprehension of the weak. And that it is doing God service when it is violating all His laws.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chris View Post
    It could well be as you interpret it, never thought about it before seeing this. I'm not so sure fascism saved the rich as much as the entire nation. Private property was left alone as long as you did the bidding of the government. It put the nation first, as I understand it.

    At the time there was capitalism, fascism, nazism and communism. Capitalism was seen as crumbling under the Great Depression.
    I had only come across the quote yesterday and most the online commentary was about how it is misused to portray Mises as pro-fascist which can only be done by taking the red font out of context.

    I think what you describe is true but meaningless to your average person. The man who still has his farm, or his shop, his apartment complex etc isn't doing the bidding of the state and I would imagine he considered his property protected by the regime.
    Whoever criticizes capitalism, while approving immigration, whose working class is its first victim, had better shut up. Whoever criticizes immigration, while remaining silent about capitalism, should do the same.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Chris View Post
    One question, how much power did corporate groups, such as agricultural, labour, military, scientific, or guild associations, have?
    Can we really say? Fascism existed for a very short period of time and was engaged in a life and death struggle with the liberal regimes and the USSR for much of it.
    Whoever criticizes capitalism, while approving immigration, whose working class is its first victim, had better shut up. Whoever criticizes immigration, while remaining silent about capitalism, should do the same.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Mister D View Post
    When he wrote it is irrelevant...
    Why is it irrelevant?

    ...and, like I said, no one rushes to tell us that FDR made positive comments about fascism before the war.
    Assuming this is true (it's not), what is it supposed to prove?

    It seems patently obvious that Mises perceived fascism as a liberal reaction to the crisis of capitalism.
    Where did Mises say that fascism was a "liberal reaction to the crisis of capitalism"? Or that fascism was a "liberal, bourgeois movement"? Those are not his words, but yours.

    He was of course wrong but my only intention here was to remark upon the similarity between reactions to fascism across the spectrum.
    Your interpretation of his words is puzzling to say the least.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mister D View Post
    I had only come across the quote yesterday and most the online commentary was about how it is misused to portray Mises as pro-fascist which can only be done by taking the red font out of context.

    I think what you describe is true but meaningless to your average person. The man who still has his farm, or his shop, his apartment complex etc isn't doing the bidding of the state and I would imagine he considered his property protected by the regime.
    He sure wasn't pro-fascist but could well have mistaken it for a liberal movement, or hoped so, in opposition to communism.

    None of those system were imaginable without liberalism.

    You're right, the average Italian probably felt liberated economically and proud nationally, just like the average German under pre-war Nazism.
    Tradition is not the worship of ashes, but the preservation of fire. ― Gustav Mahler

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