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It may be worth pointing out that the revolutionary fathers of this country were predominantly Deists, not fundamentalist Christians. Most of them did not believe in the supernatural, for example. You will find that this includes, among many others, all of our first four presidents -- George Washington (who also led the Revolutionary War) and John Adams on what was considered to be the right wing, as well as Thomas Jefferson (who authored his own version of the Bible omitting all supernatural occurrences) and James Madison (who was also the principal author of the U.S. Constitution) on what was considered the left -- in addition to, in a still more complete way, the likes of Thomas Paine, the famed author of Common Sense, and Ethan Allen, who is considered the founder of my state, Vermont. I seriously do not get from whence the "founded as a Christian nation, on Christian principles" argument comes. That claim has no basis, especially as wielded by supernaturalist institutions like the Southern Baptist Convention.
To be sure, most of the "founding fathers" sought to practice both Deism and Christianity (as to remain socially acceptable), but strongly sided with the former type of view wherever the two obviously conflicted (as with the idea of supernatural phenomenon). Perhaps this might go a long way toward explaining their sympathies with the principle of religious freedom. None of them, to my knowledge, celebrated Christmas either. Neither did most Americans at the time. It was often viewed as an unwelcome foreign import.
America wasn't the only country like that either. In France, whose 18th century revolution was inspired by ours, there came a point, during the rule of the Jacobins (who won the first election in which all men were allowed to vote, regardless of class), when plans were drawn up by the governing party to mandate a variety of Deism as the official state religion.
Anyway...I do get your point, Charlie Brown: that Christmas today is an essentially empty, soulless commercial holiday in practice wherein the public celebration of the officially founding Christian element has become its most controversial aspect, outweighed in cultural popularity and celebration by the figure of the Santa Claus (e.g. Santa imagery is everywhere, while stuff like manger scenes and Christian carols are getting tougher to find). It's a fair enough point, I suppose, and I can see how as much would be depressing some who count themselves Christians. I'm just pointing out here that the increasing failure of your local mall or neighborhood lawn to visibly acknowledge the virgin birth isn't necessarily out of step with the views of those considered the principal founders of this country, most of whom neither believed in the virgin birth nor celebrated this particular holiday at all.
Last edited by IMPress Polly; 12-08-2018 at 09:38 AM.
I largely agree with your take on our Founders. However I include those who signed the Declaration of Independence as Founders. Many of those were clergy of various denominations.
With that said, I agree that the US was not founded as, or is, a Christian nation. It was founded as and is a secular nation. However, the cultural roots of America is Western and traces its roots from a religious Europe and even back to Rome. Read up on DC and its early history for that neat bit of history.
ΜOΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ
Captdon (12-10-2018),IMPress Polly (12-08-2018),MisterVeritis (12-08-2018)
Interesting information. Obviously Paine was a Deist for sure. But I did not know that Deism was widely followed by the founders. Many people where I live, including me, feel closest to God/The universe/Their Center ( However you wish to word it) in the woods on next to a stream. Christmas as we know it now is largely a Commercial Holiday started way too early to . Or has my son puts it . "There are 12 days of Christmas and NONE of them are in $#@!ing November!"
Though out much of history religion and nationalism are how the poor are motivated to fight for the greed of the super rich.
I have to agree. Living as a Christian in name only and living as a Christian through actions are not even remotely close to being the same thing. We've become victims of manipulation. Our minds are manipulated by partisan politics, our sickness in material 'stuff' is blatant and out of control and being fed by commercialism. Really, can't your 11 year old daughter or son live without a smartphone or being pressured into joining every sport their school offers. Do kids really need to get a ride in Range Rover to school when it's only a half mile from home? We're raising a new generation of spoiled, entitled children that will grown up as a carbon copy of all that Trump represents.
We forgot what Christmas past represented. It represented a celebration of the birth of Christ who received 3 gifts from Muslim Kings. It doesn't mean that people have to push their credit cards to the max and go into debt buying stupid stuff that nobody really needs. Now Christmas represents mobs rushing Walmart's on Black Friday and people punching each other and wrestling over a leopard print hoodie at Victoria's Secret. Where's Christ in all that?
My son moved to Colombia, South America. He reminds me of how people that honor the Christ child on December 25th remember him. They celebrate with lights, with music, with good food and brotherhood. They don't buy mountains of presents or expensive toys that will be discarded in a few days. They keep the Christ child at the focus and forefront of this holiday. Simpler times.... does anyone in the U.S. even remember what that was like? I surely do.
Last edited by HumblePi; 12-09-2018 at 09:32 AM.
Peter1469 (12-09-2018)
Call your state legislators and insist they approve the Article V convention of States to propose amendments.
I pledge allegiance to the Constitution as written and understood by this nation's founders, and to the Republic it created, an indivisible union of sovereign States, with liberty and justice for all.
Captdon (12-10-2018)
MisterVeritis (12-09-2018)
Call your state legislators and insist they approve the Article V convention of States to propose amendments.
I pledge allegiance to the Constitution as written and understood by this nation's founders, and to the Republic it created, an indivisible union of sovereign States, with liberty and justice for all.
Captdon (12-10-2018)
Plant farms and animal sanctuaries with just compensation: Genesis 1:29-30, 2-3, Lev. 24:18-22, Psalm 50, Isaiah 1, 11:6-9, 65, 66, Daniel 1, Hosea 2:18, Revelation 20-22.
Creation of horses: Zechariah 6:1-8, 14:20. Wild Horses, burros persecuted, parted out in violation of Public Law 92-195:
https://twitter.com/WildHorseEdu
Jesus was a Vegetarian: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dx6J6jh1Dzo