Rights

[Chris]

We have the right to defend ourselves and our property. We create governments to help us defend our right to life and liberty.

See?

[MisterVeritis]

A right is a prohibition against government agents. We have a right to life. The government cannot take our lives without due process. We have a right to liberty. The government cannot compel us (in most cases) to choose against our will.

I hate to be a literalist in this, but I think I must. How can you say truthfully that a government cannot do something, when it's clear that they CAN? I think we did this the other day, and I'm sorry for not getting it. I'm trying.
It's clear throughout history that power and might takes whatever it wants. Due process can be perverted and outright ignored.

Do you perhaps really mean SHOULD NOT, instead of cannot?

A government that fails to help us protect our rights is not legitimate and must be replaced with a government better suited to us. A government's failure to defend our rights does not alter the nature of the right itself. I have a right to life. If the government acts against my right to life without due process I have the right to defend myself.

[MisterVeritis]

A few things, but I'll start with that all men are created equal.
What does that mean to you?

It means we all have the same rights.

[Chris]

A few things, but I'll start with that all men are created equal.

What does that mean to you?

We, that's before God or the universe if you're Epicurean. But not before man's law. By law we're surely not equal economically. Equality is at odds with liberty.

[MisterVeritis]

How can a right be a responsibility? I have a right to life. My life. You have a right to your life. Who is responsible?

I am...a member of a society.

Society has nothing to do with rights.

I have a right to life. Saying I am responsible confers no new information.

[MisterVeritis]

See?

Our rights are individual. I have a right to my life. You have a right to yours.

[MisterVeritis]

We have the right to defend ourselves and our property. We create governments to help us defend our right to life and liberty.

See?

I see that when we band together to form governments we do not act alone. Each of us gives up a little liberty in return for a little security. Forming a government has nothing to do with our rights. Forming a government is a means to help us each defend our rights.

[Marcus Aurelius]

It seems to me that the right of ownership is far more primal than reason. Notice how defensive some animals can get when you try to take their food away. If I feel strongly that I have a certain claim to something, like my liberty, I will feel dismayed and angry when it is taken from me. The deepest part of my being will object to the violation. If it didn't, incarceration would not be a punishment.

So when it comes to at least one right, liberty, I'm going to claim that it rests on metaphysical ground rather than rational. Whatever machinations of God and/or billions of years of evolution and trillions of deaths and births it took to get me here, WHY the entire fabric of my being objects to the violation of my liberty is ultimately a mystery. It is a mysterious reality, but a reality nonetheless.

When I recognize my claim to liberty, I also recognize that you are equally entitled to the same claim, and that we therefore have mutual obligations to each other, namely, to not impinge on each others' liberty. Rights and obligations always seem to go hand-in-hand.

[Chris]

We have the right to defend ourselves and our property. We create governments to help us defend our right to life and liberty.

I see that when we band together to form governments we do not act alone. Each of us gives up a little liberty in return for a little security. Forming a government has nothing to do with our rights. Forming a government is a means to help us each defend our rights.

Man is a social animal. We always band together. Except for the fictious Robinson Crusoe.

[Chris]

Our rights are individual. I have a right to my life. You have a right to yours.

We are social animals that depend on each other.