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Thread: The Flow of Time.....

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    The Flow of Time.....

    When contemplating the flow of time. It appears that Time is in movement, we look at the past, and into the future, and we see it much like driving somewhere, where we are in movement. It seems as though we have moved forward in a long journey that we call a life span. But upon closer inspection, there has been no moving forward in time. Everthing has happened from this one point. It can be likened to an exploding flower, or a kaleidoscoping flower that is infinitely blooming in place, in constant transformation and flux. All of that journey has happened right here where you stand, with your same self, and your perspective of looking out from your eyes. It has never occurred at any other place, other than right here.


    Likewise we break up our life into moments. This moment and then the next moment, and all of our past moments. But upon closer inspection of the moment, you will see that there are no consecutive moments. There is only ever this one continuous moment, and upon closer inspection even that moment fades away, and all you have is the thusness of being, and upon closer inspection even that fades into not.


    The cause of this ignorance is the mind. It is thoughts, and ideas, and labels, that make us perceive the world in ways other than they actually are. We misperceive reality, because we are projecting. We project mind images onto the whole universe. We do not see it for what it is.


    This occurs because the mind has a quality that can be likened to a river. It seems to flow forward in time. The mind never ceases, not even during sleep. During our waking hours our mind seems to move endlessly, with one thought form morphing into another, in a continuous succession. It never takes a break, at the end of the day when exhaustion has overtaken us, we fall asleep, but the mind doesn't. It continues on, in the form of dreams, even in sleep the mind is still working things out.


    The mind is a life form unto its self. It is a collection of energies, and imprints passed onto us from all of our encounters in life, since our first days in the womb. Those energies evolve and change. The mind never lets us rest. But then who is it that can see the mind moving? Who is it that is able to see the mind? Could it be that we are not just the thoughts that are morphing and flowing, but that we are that which sees it all happening? Could it be that we have mistaken ourself for the thoughts rather than what is seeing them? When the master returns to his rightful place, perhaps there will be the stopping of the flow of mind. And, this one eternal moment, will be experienced in its simpleness and fundamental nature.


    What is your perception of time, is it real or a mind made invention?
    We are all brothers and sisters in humanity. We are all made from the same dust of stars. We cannot be separated because all life is interconnected.

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    Parts of your post remind of an idea of Jung's, the unus mundus, or one world. I'm not sure I understand what he meant very well, but I think the idea is that consciousness and matter are two manifestations of the same reality, similar to the physical fact that matter and energy are two manifestations of the same reality. One of the results of that theory was the idea of synchronicity, meaning events that occur in our lives that are meaningful coincidences, but are not caused by any willful action on our part. I think I have that right. It had something to do with Jung's approach to the supernatural. There's a wiki article on synchronicity here for starters, but it raises more questions than answers for me.

    I'm guessing that Jung was talking about a higher-level consciousness when he talked about the unus mundus, one that transcends the ordinary ego with all of its petty, clamoring desires? I think that's what you mean by the ignorant mind that's misperceiving the world because of its projections. That's the lower consciousness of selfish desires. When the higher mind looks down on the lower thinker (desirer is probably a better word), it recognizes it for what it is: a persistently yammering little toddler that throws tantrums when it doesn't get what it wants.

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    And Heraclitus who said, "No man ever steps in the same river twice"
    Tradition is not the worship of ashes, but the preservation of fire. ― Gustav Mahler

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    Quote Originally Posted by Chris View Post
    And Heraclitus who said, "No man ever steps in the same river twice"
    And, Heraclitus would be 100% correct. You truly cannot step into the same river twice. It is the same yet different. Even if you step into that river the moment you have stepped into that river it is already different. The water flowing by and its sources and the movement of the fish and rocks in the water will never be the same from moment to moment.

    Likewise as is the river never the same in any two moments, neither are we. Our very self is changing from moment to moment. Our bodies are in a constant state of death and regeneration. Millions of cells are dying and millions being reborn. Not only just your body, but also your very mind. The mind is constantly changing as well.

    Every instant of your life a new imprint is made on your mind, and it has an affect on how you perceive the world. It adds to your collection of views. Our mind is made of all the peoples minds who came before us. At birth the minds of our parents began to be imprinted onto us. We were taught everything they know, and how they see the world. Likewise their minds came from all who came before them. Our minds are the minds of our ancestors, they are literally alive in us. Mind is passed on from one being to the next. It is not only another's mind that will influence our own, but also our surroundings and environment. They impress themselves upon us and our mind evolves. Moment by moment just like the river, our entire being is in flux ever changing.

    But, we do not change alone, rather we are part of the whole. We change along with all beings together. We are more connected than we could ever realize.
    We are all brothers and sisters in humanity. We are all made from the same dust of stars. We cannot be separated because all life is interconnected.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Marcus Aurelius View Post
    Parts of your post remind of an idea of Jung's, the unus mundus, or one world. I'm not sure I understand what he meant very well, but I think the idea is that consciousness and matter are two manifestations of the same reality, similar to the physical fact that matter and energy are two manifestations of the same reality. One of the results of that theory was the idea of synchronicity, meaning events that occur in our lives that are meaningful coincidences, but are not caused by any willful action on our part. I think I have that right. It had something to do with Jung's approach to the supernatural. There's a wiki article on synchronicity here for starters, but it raises more questions than answers for me.

    I'm guessing that Jung was talking about a higher-level consciousness when he talked about the unus mundus, one that transcends the ordinary ego with all of its petty, clamoring desires? I think that's what you mean by the ignorant mind that's misperceiving the world because of its projections. That's the lower consciousness of selfish desires. When the higher mind looks down on the lower thinker (desirer is probably a better word), it recognizes it for what it is: a persistently yammering little toddler that throws tantrums when it doesn't get what it wants.
    That was an excellent reply. I have never read anything by Jung but I think I may have heard the name before. Your reply was insightful and very well written. I will share my thoughts on what you said.

    I will start with ignorance. I will give an example. My mother has a rocking chair, it was passed down to her from her grandmother. My great grandmother rocked all of her children to sleep in that chair, likewise my mother rocked me and my siblings in that chair. To my mother that chair is a treasure. When my mother looks at that chair, she may not realize it but in her mind is a collection of energies, and memories. They all come through at once in a sort of quantum manner. The moment she looks at that chair, she sees something, and feels something precious, and that moment contains within it, all of the memories of her grandmother rocking her children to sleep, it then includes her rocking her children to sleep in it. She has a strong idea, a collection of imprints. So when my mother sees that chair she does not see it for what it is, she sees it for what her memories and imprints have written upon her psyche.

    But if you were to walk into that room, and see her chair, perhaps you would think nothing of that chair. It is like when someone dies and all of their belongings are given to the goodwill. I personally will not shop at estate sales, I find them to be sad. What I see is a persons whole life. I know that they had ideas about all of their belongings, just like I described above about my mother and her rocking chair. Those item only mean something to the one who owned them. An item so small can hold so many memories, and ideas. But often when a person passes, those things that were that persons whole life are sold, or donated to a thrift store. When a person goes to shop at that thrift store, they wont know about the memories that were attached to those items. They just see stuff, they will see it according to their own imprints, and memories.

    I believe that this is why people seem to treasure still life paintings. A skilled artist, can capture the moment just as it is. The vivid colors, the lights, the shadows. It is a moment of seeing fundamental reality with nothing added. Like lets say you were to see a vase of flowers on the table, or a bowl of fruit. You may have memories attached to those flowers, even if you are unaware of it. Like if there were a vase of Lilacs on the table. You may not be able to just see them in their raw form. If you have memories or imprints that may stem from childhood of summertime and the smell of lilacs. It could be any memory. We all have something. But all of those imprints are there, so when we see the object we are seeing a projection of the mind it can be compared to a phantasm.

    Because of this phantasm, we miss seeing what is before us. Like listening to a person speak, we are listening but at the same time our mind is moving, and comparing. In a sort of quantum way, our mind is thinking of our own similar experiences. Because of this you may miss the true meaning of what that person was really trying to say, because you put your own personal meaning to it. Our mind is always judging, and comparing, and reflecting. Because of this we often miss the truth of reality. This is the reason that a conversation evolves. You can watch it happen in real time. A person starts telling you their story, you are listening to them, but at the same time your mind is comparing, and suddenly memories that were stored in your store consciousness, arise when they are resonated, with the other persons similar story, then sometimes before the other person even finishes, you feel the powerful urge to start sharing your story. When there is a large group of people this flow of mind can go on late into the night. It will just continue to morph from one subject to the next. It is a wonderful way to observe the mechanisms of the mind, and to witness the strength of the energies and imprints in your mind and in the minds of others. It can show us how our mind works.

    But a skilled still life painter would see the people siting in that room, They would look past the projections and they would paint exactly what they see. They would paint the people sitting there, and what they are sitting on, and the textures of the chair, or fabrics, they would paint the light that was cast around the room, and the shadows. But the people who were sitting in that room who were the subjects of that painting, would never see those things. They are only seeing the projections of their minds.

    When our mind is projecting we cannot take in fundamental reality just as it is.

    Children are much closer to seeing fundamental reality. They do not yet have a whole lifetime of judgements. This is why they just say what ever comes to their mind. They are not worried about being judged. If they are in the grocery store, and they want something and you don't buy it for them, they have no qualms about throwing them selves on the floor and kicking wildly. They are not worried about what anyone will think of them. And five minutes later it will be like it never happened they may still have tears streaming down their face with a smile as they move on to their next emotion. They don't hold to it like we adults do.

    Many childhood memories are so clear, just because we were so much closer to seeing fundamental reality just as it is. Those memories are sharp and clear, and full of presence. Because they come from a time of a much less discriminating mind. We all have that memory of a smell, or a sound. Just something clear and sharp. I remember playing in the rain. I can still see my feet walking in the puddles and I remember watching the rain fall. I remember fishing with my dad and watching rain fall in the lake. I would see it so clear. When the rain drop hits, the water jumps up and then a ring goes out. How clear that perception was. I can remember listening to the sound of the birds by the lake so sharp so clear. I remember the joy of paying attention to my footsteps. Children pay attention to things that adults don't even know exist anymore. The responsibility of life and the forced ideas and judgments have removed us from seeing reality just as it is.

    Like if you go outside and look at the trees if the light is shinning just right the trees glow, it seems unearthly. It is beautiful. But when people have things going on in their minds they don't see it. I think this is one of the reasons why in the saint pic they show things glowing it is heavenly. But if you have the eyes to see, you can see it every day.

    As per the part where you said two manifestations of the same reality. I find that even in the projections there is thusness and there is no movement. It is just that we cant see that reality because we are caught looking at the movement of the mind, and mistaking our self for being just the movement of the mind, and not being quiet enough to see the depth of the mind, and the still nature of the mind. Even in movement stillness is the underlying force.

    “We join spokes together in a wheel, but it is the center hole that makes the wagon move. We shape clay into a pot, but it is the emptiness inside that holds whatever we want. We hammer wood for a house, but it is the inner space that makes it livable. We work with being, but non-being is what we use.” ―
    Lao Tzu

    Synchronicity. I call it the mandala. It is the movement of the whole cosmos. We are part of the movement of all that is, we are all interconnected. For one we are all made of the same elements. We are made of the dust of stars, we all eat vegetables, and fruit, and meats, that were grown in the dust of stars, and that have sunlight inside of them, and rain. Those foods then are made of those elements, they are those elements in their transformed state, then we eat those foods and those elements become our bodies. Our bodies are made from the whole cosmos. Our very bodies are older than time.

    We are all part of one another, and there is no where that you can find a place that separates us. If you think I am here, and you are there, then that would be a mistake, are we really apart? Is there space around my body? It seems like it, but if you look deeply you will find that there is no space. That space is made up of all that is. It contains atoms, cells, signals like wifi radio waves, perhaps even thoughts of others. That space is not empty at all, it is full of stuff you just cant see it. But it is completely full. Like for example take a glass of water, and remove a drop of water from it, and put that drop back in. Do you think you can remove that same exact same drop again once you put it back in the cup of water? You cant, because it has become one with the whole glass of water. We are exactly like that. We are all in the same womb of life, and there is no place where we are not connected.

    I think of the mandala like a set of dominoes. It is already set in motion. The whole universe is in motion, it includes every single blade of grass, every single leaf on a tree, every single atom and cell. They are all playing their particular role in this moment, and those roles are made of the previous moments, that brought this moment into existence. This includes every single gust of wind in the cosmos, every single thought any person has ever had. Because they are all set up just like they are, then there is a probable outcome of the future moment. Therefore, all of the past exists in this one moment, and likewise all of the entire future exists in this one moment as well. Because the conditions are already set in motion for them to play out. The cause for the effect is already there.

    I have given this example here in this forum before but will say it again. One time I was trying to rescue a baby kitten who was in really bad shape. I brought her home. My neighbor told me that when she was little and on a farm that she and her dad used to feed their kittens with baby bottles. So I went to my local farmers exchange and got a baby bottle for animals. While feeding that kitten she bit off the nipple, and swallowed it, and she was already in really bad shape and undernourished. Her intestines were not capable of expelling that nipple. I took her to get surgery. In the end she did not make it. It was one of my most sad memories. But I realize that the kitten did not just die that day. She died long ago in the past. Because it was the moment of my neighbor on that farm feeding her animals that was the cause of the future moment where I would be feeding the sick kitten the same way.

    There are some moments like this where you can see it clearly. I have several instances. But this example is pretty good.

    I am not into still life paintings or anything but I will attach two pics just to show what I mean about just seeing what is there.

    13-orange-still-life-painting.preview.jpg

    23-still-life-painting-by-tessy.preview.jpg
    We are all brothers and sisters in humanity. We are all made from the same dust of stars. We cannot be separated because all life is interconnected.

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    I was thinking some more on seeing things just as they are. A good example is if you have ever been to some place new. It could be anyplace, a restaurant or anywhere but the ones that stand out the most are a new city or country. When you first arrive that first day everything looks surreal it is so alien. The way you see it is completely fresh and sharp. But if you stay for more than one day, the look of the place changes. It becomes more familiar. The reason is that your mind started to add to what it was seeing it began to build up ideas which we call familiarity. We no longer see it fresh like that first time. Once the mind has added onto something, we cannot see it just as it is anymore.

    Many years ago while living in Arizona, we were having a cold winter, there was even ice on the puddles. I had bought this new tea from the store. I made it in a styraphoam cup and went out by myself and sat on my porch and drank that cup of hot tea. I can still see in my mind the steam rising from the cup, the comforted feeling I had while sitting out in the cold drinking that cup of tea. I can feel my hands truly holding that cup and taking sips. My whole being was immersed in that moment. To this day I am chasing that experience. Why was it so wonderful? It is because to do something for the first time with no preconditioned ideas is to be immersed in true reality, with no hindrance of mind. It is true experience. If you try to re-create that experience it never works. Because the mind has already created ideas and they will always arise to the surface when resonated.

    To be immersed in fundamental reality, and experience this moment just as it is, is the ultimate experience. All beings chase it, even though they don't know it. But all we have to do is drop our ideas, and see things with fresh unfiltered eyes, and the whole world opens up. It is then that we can experience the world in this fresh way with no hindrance of mind.
    We are all brothers and sisters in humanity. We are all made from the same dust of stars. We cannot be separated because all life is interconnected.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Just AnotherPerson View Post
    ....What is your perception of time, is it real or a mind made invention?
    There is only the eternal now. "Time" is an abstract that doesn't exist. The past is a memory and the future is a fantasy. There is only now.

    At least that's what Alan Watts would say.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Just AnotherPerson View Post
    When contemplating the flow of time. It appears that Time is in movement, we look at the past, and into the future, and we see it much like driving somewhere, where we are in movement. It seems as though we have moved forward in a long journey that we call a life span. But upon closer inspection, there has been no moving forward in time. Everthing has happened from this one point. It can be likened to an exploding flower, or a kaleidoscoping flower that is infinitely blooming in place, in constant transformation and flux. All of that journey has happened right here where you stand, with your same self, and your perspective of looking out from your eyes. It has never occurred at any other place, other than right here.


    Likewise we break up our life into moments. This moment and then the next moment, and all of our past moments. But upon closer inspection of the moment, you will see that there are no consecutive moments. There is only ever this one continuous moment, and upon closer inspection even that moment fades away, and all you have is the thusness of being, and upon closer inspection even that fades into not.


    The cause of this ignorance is the mind. It is thoughts, and ideas, and labels, that make us perceive the world in ways other than they actually are. We misperceive reality, because we are projecting. We project mind images onto the whole universe. We do not see it for what it is.


    This occurs because the mind has a quality that can be likened to a river. It seems to flow forward in time. The mind never ceases, not even during sleep. During our waking hours our mind seems to move endlessly, with one thought form morphing into another, in a continuous succession. It never takes a break, at the end of the day when exhaustion has overtaken us, we fall asleep, but the mind doesn't. It continues on, in the form of dreams, even in sleep the mind is still working things out.


    The mind is a life form unto its self. It is a collection of energies, and imprints passed onto us from all of our encounters in life, since our first days in the womb. Those energies evolve and change. The mind never lets us rest. But then who is it that can see the mind moving? Who is it that is able to see the mind? Could it be that we are not just the thoughts that are morphing and flowing, but that we are that which sees it all happening? Could it be that we have mistaken ourself for the thoughts rather than what is seeing them? When the master returns to his rightful place, perhaps there will be the stopping of the flow of mind. And, this one eternal moment, will be experienced in its simpleness and fundamental nature.


    What is your perception of time, is it real or a mind made invention?

    I know that I am best when I am present in the moment and I know that I cannot change the past nor make the future be what I want it to be. Neither can I influence the past. I can influence my future by what I do today but paradoxically doing so removes part of me from the present decreasing my ability to influence my future.
    I think such things are largely problems of modern man. I was encouraged to build a career, , manage and plan a schedule for work, kids, wife and self ", save for kids college and plan for a retirement. Borrow money to pay back in the future for a house plus a car to get to work , then plan for the commute time. . Once accumulated wealth became a thing our lives started to become more future and past oriented than now oriented.
    I believe this is supported by all the ways different experiences ( literally from A to Z) from AA to Zen try to help us stay in the moment or at least the day. Probably something that was much easier to do 10,000 plus years ago.
    Probably something our minds are still trying to adjust and adapt to doing in modern life, because the realities of modern life change quickly.
    Having said all that I have known for a long time that I am at my best when I am fully in the moment. But that is still very hard to do consistently.

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