Socialism, the history of such

[testsubjectalpha]

A thread to discuss the failures and successes of the form of socio-economic organization called Socialism. Most if not virtually all societies throughout human history have experienced this form of socio-economic organization so there is an endless plethora of history to draw upon to understand it's vagaries or virtues.

[Chris]

Socialism is a fairly recent ideology. I would credit Henri de Saint-Simon, Charles Fourier, Étienne Cabet and Robert Owen as founders. That early 19th century.

It has failed everywhere it’s been tried.

[Mister D]

Socialism is a fairly recent ideology. I would credit Henri de Saint-Simon, Charles Fourier, Étienne Cabet and Robert Owen as founders. That early 19th century.

It has failed everywhere it’s been tried.

Socialism appears to have too many variants for me to make many confident statements about it but the Marxist variant has in fact failed everywhere and at immense human cost.

[testsubjectalpha]

Chris, I would posit that Socialism is as old as the entirety of human existence. I would argue that Socialism is form of slavery whereby a few people assume rule over the masses, treating the masses as ignorants incapable of self determination. Then dictating to the masses who they will be and then demanding compliance with what they will.

[Mister D]

I do agree that it's a modern ideology. No premodern society was socialist.

[Chris]

Socialism appears to have too many variants for me to make many confident statements about it but the Marxist variant has in fact failed everywhere and at immense human cost.

I'll leave it to socialists to claim success.

It was Henri de Saint-Simon who coined the term albeit in French. He may have been anti-individualistic in naming it so, but Marx's conception was individualistic, aiming to perfect society in man as it were.

[Chris]

Chris, I would posit that Socialism is as old as the entirety of human existence. I would argue that Socialism is form of slavery whereby a few people assume rule over the masses, treating the masses as ignorants incapable of self determination. Then dictating to the masses who they will be and then demanding compliance with what they will.

What you're doing is taking some attribute of the modern ideology and then looking for similarities in the past. You're putting the cart before the horse. It's like saying that because socialism is individualistic that Christianty was socialism. Those are influences.

[Mister D]

I'll leave it to socialists to claim success.

It was Henri de Saint-Simon who coined the term albeit in French. He may have been anti-individualistic in naming it so, but Marx's conception was individualistic, aiming to perfect society in man as it were.

I'm coming to understand that some of these early socialist were hard to place ideologically. Marx, BTW, hated the French socialists.

Agreed on Marx. I also don't think a system like socialism is even conceivable except in a society where traditional structures have broken down.

[Chris]

I was fully expecting an argument that primitive tribes were socialists/communists because they were cooperative. Dr Who likes to argue that one. But capitalism is based on cooperation, too, seen in every voluntary exchange. Heck, far back as Aristotle we have a definition of man as reasoning, social beings. We cooperate naturally. But that doesn't make us all socialists.

[Mister D]

I was fully expecting an argument that primitive tribes were socialists/communists because they were cooperative. Dr Who likes to argue that one. But capitalism is based on cooperation, too, seen in every voluntary exchange. Heck, far back as Aristotle we have a definition of man as reasoning, social beings. We cooperate naturally. But that doesn't make us all socialists.

Moderns (read Westerners) have been assuming the universality of their ideas and projecting their values on other societies (past and present) for quite a while now. It was once a common theme to portray the Inca, for example, as a prototypical socialist society.