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Thread: Sacked cardinal issues manifesto

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Xl View Post
    Extreme Muslims are a lot more militant and violent on average.
    That's all you've got?

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    Quote Originally Posted by IMPress Polly View Post
    The number of ways in which the Catholic Church's, as the OP puts it, "ultra-conservative" wing substantively differ from fundamentalist Muslims is finite and semantic, in my observation. The two groups share not only a mutual religious narrowness, but also opposition to women's rights, to gay rights, a lack of concern for the environment, an obsession with imposing modesty, etc. etc. Take away the technical details of what name they call God by and such and they are very much alike.
    I don't think this is based on your observation, I think this is based on your reading of propaganda. The Church is not against Women's rights, believes that homosexuality is a sin but loves the sinner, has a tremendous concern for the environment but yes believes that modesty in our sexuality is important. I can't think of any conservative Catholics beheading anyone. I understand that the no women priests thing butts up against your worldview but one of several reasons why the Catholic Church cannot ordain women to the priesthood is that the it is part of the substance of the sacrament of holy orders that the person receiving ordination be a man. The Church cannot change this substance because the sacraments, as instituted by Christ, are the foundation of the Church. I think that the Church would welcome women Priests and have permitted women to serve alongside men up to that point but it cannot change what it believes that Christ decreed. I understand that means nothing to you and is seen as male domination. We disagree.
    Last edited by DGUtley; 02-11-2019 at 07:50 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by DGUtley View Post
    I don't think this is based on your observation, I think this is based on your reading of propaganda. The Church is not against Women's rights, believes that homosexuality is a sin but loves the sinner, has a tremendous concern for the environment but yes believes that modesty in our sexuality is important.
    You say that the Church isn't against women's rights and yet, of course, it is a written principle of the Church that women cannot even be priests therein because cooties. The Church is furthermore opposed not only to abortion, but also to birth control, divorce, and child adoption. Why?

    (I won't even go into the other subjects. We're not going to be able to agree.)
    Last edited by IMPress Polly; 02-11-2019 at 07:50 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by IMPress Polly View Post
    You say that the Church isn't against women's rights and yet, of course, it is a written principle of the Church that women cannot even be priests therein because cooties. The Church is furthermore opposed not only to abortion, but also to birth control, divorce, and child adoption. Why?

    (I won't even go into the other subjects. We're not going to be able to agree.)
    You lost me when you compared the catholic church to muslims, I stopped reading
    Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedies.

    GROUCHO MARX,

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    Quote Originally Posted by Common View Post
    You lost me when you compared the catholic church to muslims, I stopped reading
    I care.

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    Quote Originally Posted by IMPress Polly View Post
    You say that the Church isn't against women's rights and yet, of course, it is a written principle of the Church that women cannot even be priests therein because cooties. The Church is furthermore opposed not only to abortion, but also to birth control, divorce, and child adoption. Why? (I won't even go into the other subjects. We're not going to be able to agree.)
    1. I modified my response above relative to why there cannot be women Priests. Please read it.
    2. The Church opposes artificial birth control as interfering with the will of God to bring new life into this world -- this was also main line Protestant belief until the 1930's. American Catholics generally ignore this prohibition.
    3. The Church opposes divorce as separating what God has put together. You can get a Church-sanctioned divorce if you show that the marriage lacked foundation from the get-go. Many do.
    4. Huh? The Church does not oppose adoption.
    Any time you give a man something he doesn't earn, you cheapen him. Our kids earn what they get, and that includes respect. -- Woody Hayes​

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    Quote Originally Posted by DGUtley View Post
    1. I modified my response above relative to why there cannot be women Priests. Please read it.
    2. The Church opposes artificial birth control as interfering with the will of God to bring new life into this world -- this was also main line Protestant belief until the 1930's. American Catholics generally ignore this prohibition.
    3. The Church opposes divorce as separating what God has put together. You can get a Church-sanctioned divorce if you show that the marriage lacked foundation from the get-go. Many do.
    4. Huh? The Church does not oppose adoption.
    Thanks for the addition to the previous post and for the additional views. I don't agree with any of them and find these all to be petty excuses for sexist attitudes personally (e.g. it's women who file for divorce like 90% of the time, and it isn't usually just because). Or like on birth control, I'm not sure why God would want life brought into the world that the mom wouldn't. But okay.

    On your fourth point though, fair enough. Looking back at the article I was referring to, I see that it was actually a group of very conservative clergymen who were calling for the prohibition of adoption, not the Church itself. Although...isn't that the group we're discussing here as the OP: specifically the more conservative factions of the Church?

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    Quote Originally Posted by IMPress Polly View Post
    You say that the Church isn't against women's rights and yet, of course, it is a written principle of the Church that women cannot even be priests therein because cooties. The Church is furthermore opposed not only to abortion, but also to birth control, divorce, and child adoption. Why?

    (I won't even go into the other subjects. We're not going to be able to agree.)

    Other than adoption (and I have never ever heard of that restriction) its not a "written principle" of the Church but its adherence to the Bible that dictates those positions. Why would any religion condone the murder of an unborn child? Here is the Church's position on adoption

    http://thecatholicspirit.com/spotlig...rent-children/
    Last edited by nathanbforrest45; 02-11-2019 at 08:23 AM.
    Political tags - such as royalist, communist, democrat, populist, fascist, liberal, conservative, and so forth - are never basic criteria. The human race divides politically into those who want people to be controlled and those who have no such desire.
    Robert A. Heinlein

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    Quote Originally Posted by IMPress Polly View Post
    That's all you've got?
    What do you have? You have your opinion of what Catholics should believe. Ever think we don't want to go to Hell? You believe what you want and I'll believe morality.
    Liberals are a clear and present danger to our freedom and our society and our morals.

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    Quote Originally Posted by IMPress Polly View Post
    You say that the Church isn't against women's rights and yet, of course, it is a written principle of the Church that women cannot even be priests therein because cooties. The Church is furthermore opposed not only to abortion, but also to birth control, divorce, and child adoption. Why?

    (I won't even go into the other subjects. We're not going to be able to agree.)
    Ever read the Bible? You seem to have forgotten whatever you read. Polly, you consistently argue tings you knew nothing about. You know nothing material about Catholicism.

    You want the Church to follow man instead of man following God. You don't get to do that. If you want that join a cult and leave us be. You make loving the sinner harder than it should be.
    Liberals are a clear and present danger to our freedom and our society and our morals.

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