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Thread: What Is Socialism?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Chris View Post
    I agree that once you scale it up either chaos results or a totalitarian regime takes over.

    But in a capitalist system, for various reasons, the same thing seems to be happening as the government takes more and more authority over our lives.

    My point is coercion doesn't define the economics, only the politics.
    I disagree, coercion is an integral part of socialism/communism.
    Cutesy Time is OVER

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    Quote Originally Posted by Chris View Post
    I agree that once you scale it up either chaos results or a totalitarian regime takes over.

    But in a capitalist system, for various reasons, the same thing seems to be happening as the government takes more and more authority over our lives.

    My point is coercion doesn't define the economics, only the politics.
    When the government intrudes and interferes with the free market why do you blame the free market? Blame the real villain, the government.


    It frustrates me when someone says the government should make some activity illegal. The politicians hear that and gladly oblige. The result, always, is tyranny.
    Call your state legislators and insist they approve the Article V convention of States to propose amendments.


    I pledge allegiance to the Constitution as written and understood by this nation's founders, and to the Republic it created, an indivisible union of sovereign States, with liberty and justice for all.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MMC View Post

    Socialism Means Coercion | Cato Institute

    https://www.cato.org/publications/commentary/socialism-means-coercion
    Socialism Means Coercion. By Richard W. Rahn. ... Socialism is a system in which the government owns or controls the means of production, and allocates resources and rewards.
    He never defines socialism economically,only politically,the various political implementations from communism to Nazism.

    He also describes the US and similar government intrusion.

    Tradition is not the worship of ashes, but the preservation of fire. ― Gustav Mahler

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    Quote Originally Posted by MisterVeritis View Post
    When the government intrudes and interferes with the free market why do you blame the free market? Blame the real villain, the government.


    It frustrates me when someone says the government should make some activity illegal. The politicians hear that and gladly oblige. The result, always, is tyranny.
    Where'd I blame the free market? Of course it's the government just as it is with socialism.

    Government coercion is simply not a distinguishing feature between socialism and capitalism.
    Tradition is not the worship of ashes, but the preservation of fire. ― Gustav Mahler

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    Quote Originally Posted by Chris View Post
    He never defines socialism economically,only politically,the various political implementations from communism to Nazism.

    He also describes the US and similar government intrusion.
    If you think socialism is not a political system, you are incredibly naive. And, we all know you are NOT incredibly naive, soooo, you must be playing Devil's advocate.
    Cutesy Time is OVER

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    Quote Originally Posted by countryboy View Post
    If you think socialism is not a political system, you are incredibly naive. And, we all know you are NOT incredibly naive, soooo, you must be playing Devil's advocate.

    True, I'm trying to separate out the economics from the politics. Capitalism and socialism are both economic systems, distinct as described in the OP, but virtually the same in terms of political control. Once you remove capital expenses from production value, the question is how distribute the remainder. In capitalism the capitalist, the private owner is supposed to dcide while in socialism the workers are supposed to decide--supposed, but the government in each case makes most of those decisions. One might say socialism ends of worse but there's nothing to stop capitalism from eventually becoming totalitarian.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chris View Post
    Where'd I blame the free market? Of course it's the government just as it is with socialism.
    But in a capitalist system, for various reasons, the same thing seems to be happening ...
    Government coercion is simply not a distinguishing feature between socialism and capitalism.
    Coercion is inherent in socialism.

    We can limit government interference in capitalist systems. But we must be vigilant. We have not been.
    Call your state legislators and insist they approve the Article V convention of States to propose amendments.


    I pledge allegiance to the Constitution as written and understood by this nation's founders, and to the Republic it created, an indivisible union of sovereign States, with liberty and justice for all.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Chris View Post
    True, I'm trying to separate out the economics from the politics. Capitalism and socialism are both economic systems, distinct as described in the OP, but virtually the same in terms of political control. Once you remove capital expenses from production value, the question is how to distribute the remainder. In capitalism the capitalist, the private owner is supposed to decide while in socialism the workers are supposed to decide--supposed, but the government in each case makes most of those decisions. One might say socialism ends of worse but there's nothing to stop capitalism from eventually becoming totalitarian.
    Do you have any examples of free market systems becoming totalitarian? When you get to decide for you and I get to decide for me how could it ever become tyrannical?

    Governments are always the culprits.
    Call your state legislators and insist they approve the Article V convention of States to propose amendments.


    I pledge allegiance to the Constitution as written and understood by this nation's founders, and to the Republic it created, an indivisible union of sovereign States, with liberty and justice for all.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MisterVeritis View Post
    Do you have any examples of free market systems becoming totalitarian? When you get to decide for you and I get to decide for me how could it ever become tyrannical?

    Governments are always the culprits.
    The Chinese now have a capitalist system. It's state run.

    How much further must we go to reach that state? We're already pretty much there. There's nothing to stop it. Ths notion of individualism offers no defense as it does away with the social hierarchy that once stood between the individual and the state.
    Tradition is not the worship of ashes, but the preservation of fire. ― Gustav Mahler

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    Quote Originally Posted by MisterVeritis View Post
    But in a capitalist system, for various reasons, the same thing seems to be happening ...

    Coercion is inherent in socialism.

    We can limit government interference in capitalist systems. But we must be vigilant. We have not been.

    It happens not by intent or design in either system. The intent and design of capitalism is individual control by owners, the intent and design of socialism is equal control by workers. In neither does that exist. It happens because nothing exists to stop it from happening. Good intentions pave the road to serfdom.
    Tradition is not the worship of ashes, but the preservation of fire. ― Gustav Mahler

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