What Is Socialism?

[MisterVeritis]

The Chinese now have a capitalist system. It's state run.

How much further must we go to reach that state? We're already pretty much there. There's nothing to stop it. Ths notion of individualism offers no defense as it does away with the social hierarchy that once stood between the individual and the state.

No. They don't. The State decides.

[MisterVeritis]

It happens not by intent or design in either system. The intent and design of capitalism is individual control by owners, the intent and design of socialism is equal control by workers. In neither does that exist. It happens because nothing exists to stop it from happening. Good intentions pave the road to serfdom.

Without regard to the happy horse poop your professor buddy came up with no socialist system works as theorized. The workers don't decide. The State decides. You don't get to decide for you. I don't get to decide for me.

In free market systems, we individually decide. In a free market system, one has liberty. In socialist systems, the state decides. Under socialism one has tyranny.

We can place limits on evil governments. The US Constitution did. We should return to it.

[Chris]

Without regard to the happy horse poop your professor buddy came up with no socialist system works as theorized. The workers don't decide. The State decides. You don't get to decide for you. I don't get to decide for me.

In free market systems, we individually decide. In a free market system, one has liberty. In socialist systems, the state decides. Under socialism one has tyranny.

We can place limits on evil governments. The US Constitution did. We should return to it.

One, I put up the socialist prof in order to properly define socialism as an economic system. I noted why it won't work in that it's predicated on an invalid labor theory of value.

Two, centralization is not inherent in a system intended and designed to let workers democratically distribute the value of production. The problem is the system offers nothing to prevent centralization just as in there is nothing in the free market system to prevent it. Oh sure we're supposed to have individual liberty, we're supposed to decide as an enlightened assumption, but it is defenseless against totalitarianism.

Just as you say we should return to the Constitution a socialist, like to prof in the OP, will say we should return to workers democratically deciding. Shoulds are weak defenses against centralization.

[Chris]

No. They don't. The State decides.

Just as the state decides here.

[MisterVeritis]

One, I put up the socialist prof in order to properly define socialism as an economic system. I noted why it won't work in that it's predicated on an invalid labor theory of value.

It is happy horse poop. Socialism as an economic system is nonsense. Central planning requires a powerful central government.

Two, centralization is not inherent in a system intended and designed to let workers democratically distribute the value of production.

Of course it is. Someone has to steal the wealth. Someone has to decide how much each person pays and how much each person gets.

The problem is the system offers nothing to prevent centralization just as in there is nothing in the free market system to prevent it.

No, Chris. The problem is that socialism requires coercion. It requires centralization. It requires a massive government.

Oh sure we're supposed to have individual liberty, we're supposed to decide as an enlightened assumption, but it is defenseless against totalitarianism.

When our government becomes intolerable we will overthrow it. It is our fault we did not keep the government limited.

Just as you say we should return to the Constitution

We claim it is the supreme law of the land and yet we allow the federal government to do as it likes. Some of us see the solution in the Article V process. If that fails we will either see serfdom or rebellion.

a socialist, like to prof in the OP, will say we should return to workers democratically deciding. Shoulds are weak defenses against centralization.

There is no possible way for the workers to democratically decide anything. It is a chimera.

[MisterVeritis]

Just as the state decides here.

No. Chris.

We do endure a great deal of fascism. Fascism is not inherent in free markets. Facism is inherent in socialist systems.

[Chris]

It is happy horse poop. Socialism as an economic system is nonsense. Central planning requires a powerful central government.

Of course it is. Someone has to steal the wealth. Someone has to decide how much each person pays and how much each person gets.


No, Chris. The problem is that socialism requires coercion. It requires centralization. It requires a massive government.


When our government becomes intolerable we will overthrow it. It is our fault we did not keep the government limited.

We claim it is the supreme law of the land and yet we allow the federal government to do as it likes. Some of us see the solution in the Article V process. If that fails we will either see serfdom or rebellion.


There is no possible way for the workers to democratically decide anything. It is a chimera.

Then you misunderstand socialism as an economic system.

I agree that democracy ends up centralized. But that is true of both socialism and capitalism.

[Chris]

No. Chris.

We do endure a great deal of fascism. Fascism is not inherent in free markets. Facism is inherent in socialist systems.

Centralization is not inherent in socialism or capitalism yet centralization happens.

[MisterVeritis]

Then you misunderstand socialism as an economic system.

I agree that democracy ends up centralized. But that is true of both socialism and capitalism.

Socialism does not exist as an economic system. It cannot.

[MisterVeritis]

Centralization is not inherent in socialism or capitalism yet centralization happens.

Centralization is inherent in socialism. But not in free-markets. Free markets perform best when they are not interfered with.