User Tag List

+ Reply to Thread
Page 1 of 9 12345 ... LastLast
Results 1 to 10 of 86

Thread: The Articles of Confederation and State Sovereignty

  1. #1
    Points: 665,213, Level: 100
    Level completed: 0%, Points required for next Level: 0
    Overall activity: 90.0%
    Achievements:
    SocialRecommendation Second ClassYour first GroupOverdrive50000 Experience PointsTagger First ClassVeteran
    Awards:
    Discussion Ender
    Chris's Avatar Senior Member
    Karma
    433307
    Join Date
    Feb 2012
    Posts
    197,542
    Points
    665,213
    Level
    100
    Thanks Given
    31,981
    Thanked 80,896x in 54,714 Posts
    Mentioned
    2011 Post(s)
    Tagged
    2 Thread(s)

    The Articles of Confederation and State Sovereignty

    The Articles of Confederation and State Sovereignty

    I'll jump to the part about Thomas Burke...

    ...The exigencies of war postponed serious debate upon the draft Articles and stalled the Nationalists’ advancement in transforming the proposed “league of friendship” into a national government. The delay proved critical. When Congress finally began to reconsider the proposals in the winter of 1777, the circumstances of the debate were different. Any potential Nationalist victory collapsed as Thomas Burke, a newly arrived congressional delegate from North Carolina, took his seat. His contribution to the Revolution’s constitutional settlement was of singular importance.

    Burke, a devout republican, feared centralized power and affirmed that the states were sovereign entities. Arriving to Congress as the determined champion of state sovereignty, he was ready to do battle against the Nationalists’ attempt to weaken the authority of the states at the hands of Congress. What he witnessed in the debates in Congress confirmed his worries. The first several weeks of his tenure, he reported, were consumed with debates “whose object on one side is to increase the Power of Congress, and on the other to restrain it.”[xi] Because of his republican and federal sensitivities, Burke did not hesitate to proclaim his ideas on state sovereignty. Soon after joining Congress he told his colleagues that they were “exceedingly mistaken if they deemed him a Man who would tamely suffer any invasion or encroachment on” state sovereignty, no matter the reason or cause. If Congress “proceeded to so arbitrary and Tyrannical” an exertion of “Power he would Consider it as no longer that which ought to be trusted with the Liberties of their Fellow Citizens.” At one point, he threatened that “if any such Question should be put” that risked the sovereignty of the states, North Carolina, “with determined resolution” would “withdraw from Congress.”[xii]

    Burke believed he could account for the equivocation on the question of congressional power. “The attempts to [increase Congressional power] proceed from Ignorance of what such a Being ought to be, and from the Delusive Intoxication which power naturally imposes on the human Mind.”[xiv] Although reflecting his republican beliefs, Burke also feared that if those inebriated with power rose to prominence in the Confederation Congress as proposed in the Dickinson draft, tyranny would follow. Burke’s concern, therefore, became protecting the liberties of the people against these potential concentrations of power. To curtail any “delusive intoxications” meant chaining Congress to only those particulars granted in the proposed Articles of Confederation. Burke believed two methods could help achieve his goals. The first included insuring that “patriotism in America must always be particular to the particular states,” because “Patriotism to the whole will never be cherished or regarded but as it may be conducive or necessary to the other.” Given men’s “zealous love for that grandeur & preeminence, & a capacity to promote it that will be what must best distinguish & recommend any individual in it.”[xv] The people of the states must demand the protection of their liberties.

    Localism, however, could not guarantee the permanent limitation of Congressional authority. Having “the power of Congress…accurately defined” so that “adequate checks… prevented any excess” was necessary. Burke had cause to believe that such an adequate description of these powers was vital to the preservation of both state power and individual liberties....
    Tradition is not the worship of ashes, but the preservation of fire. ― Gustav Mahler

  2. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to Chris For This Useful Post:

    DGUtley (04-02-2019),HawkTheSlayer (04-02-2019)

  3. #2
    Points: 17,291, Level: 31
    Level completed: 85%, Points required for next Level: 159
    Overall activity: 0.1%
    Achievements:
    VeteranTagger Second Class10000 Experience Points
    Sergeant Gleed's Avatar Senior Member
    Karma
    2046
    Join Date
    Mar 2014
    Location
    Right Now? The Planet Gand
    Posts
    4,872
    Points
    17,291
    Level
    31
    Thanks Given
    492
    Thanked 2,038x in 1,586 Posts
    Mentioned
    14 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Irrelevant.

    100% superceded by the Constitution...because the Articles were a failure.

    What needs to be pointed out is that today's disastrous federal tyranny is the result of unconstitutional acts by the congress and the courts and the presidency, aided by two particular Amendments that weakened the States' voices in Congress on the one side (the 17th Amendment), destroying the Republican structure if the government itself, and the Sixteenth Amendment on the other, which gave the Congress the power to take the people's earnings directly.
    Last edited by Sergeant Gleed; 04-02-2019 at 07:09 PM.
    Freedom Requires Obstinance.

    We the People DID NOT vote in a majority Rodent Congress, they stole it via election fraud.

  4. The Following User Says Thank You to Sergeant Gleed For This Useful Post:

    MisterVeritis (04-03-2019)

  5. #3
    Points: 665,213, Level: 100
    Level completed: 0%, Points required for next Level: 0
    Overall activity: 90.0%
    Achievements:
    SocialRecommendation Second ClassYour first GroupOverdrive50000 Experience PointsTagger First ClassVeteran
    Awards:
    Discussion Ender
    Chris's Avatar Senior Member
    Karma
    433307
    Join Date
    Feb 2012
    Posts
    197,542
    Points
    665,213
    Level
    100
    Thanks Given
    31,981
    Thanked 80,896x in 54,714 Posts
    Mentioned
    2011 Post(s)
    Tagged
    2 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by Sergeant Gleed View Post
    Irrelevant.

    100% superceded by the Constitution...because the Articles were a failure.

    What needs to be pointed out is that today's disastrous federal tyranny is the result of unconstitutional acts by the congress and the courts and the presidency, aided by two particular Amendments that weakened the States' voices in Congress on the one side (the 17th Amendment), destroying the Republican structure if the government itself, and the Sixteenth Amendment on the other, which gave the Congress the power to take the people's earnings directly.
    Burke argued ways to prevent what the counter-revolutionary Constitution has failed to prevent. You see, the Articles restricted powers explicitly: "To curtail any “delusive intoxications” meant chaining Congress to only those particulars granted in the proposed Articles of Confederation." Expressly so, "Each state retains its sovereignty, freedom, and independence, and every power, jurisdiction, and right, which is not by this Confederation expressly delegated to the United States, in Congress assembled." The Constitution left that open to implied powers.
    Last edited by Chris; 04-02-2019 at 07:31 PM.
    Tradition is not the worship of ashes, but the preservation of fire. ― Gustav Mahler

  6. #4
    Points: 84,523, Level: 70
    Level completed: 87%, Points required for next Level: 327
    Overall activity: 12.0%
    Achievements:
    Tagger Second Class50000 Experience PointsSocialVeteran
    Captdon's Avatar Senior Member
    Karma
    12826
    Join Date
    Aug 2017
    Location
    Charleston South Carolina
    Posts
    38,294
    Points
    84,523
    Level
    70
    Thanks Given
    67,690
    Thanked 12,837x in 10,134 Posts
    Mentioned
    161 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    The Articles were a disaster. They were unworkable.
    Liberals are a clear and present danger to our nation
    Pick your enemies carefully.






  7. The Following User Says Thank You to Captdon For This Useful Post:

    Peter1469 (04-03-2019)

  8. #5
    Points: 665,213, Level: 100
    Level completed: 0%, Points required for next Level: 0
    Overall activity: 90.0%
    Achievements:
    SocialRecommendation Second ClassYour first GroupOverdrive50000 Experience PointsTagger First ClassVeteran
    Awards:
    Discussion Ender
    Chris's Avatar Senior Member
    Karma
    433307
    Join Date
    Feb 2012
    Posts
    197,542
    Points
    665,213
    Level
    100
    Thanks Given
    31,981
    Thanked 80,896x in 54,714 Posts
    Mentioned
    2011 Post(s)
    Tagged
    2 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by Captdon View Post
    The Articles were a disaster. They were unworkable.
    Unworkable for what? A strong centralized government? Indeed.
    Tradition is not the worship of ashes, but the preservation of fire. ― Gustav Mahler

  9. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to Chris For This Useful Post:

    Orion Rules (04-04-2019)

  10. #6
    Points: 17,291, Level: 31
    Level completed: 85%, Points required for next Level: 159
    Overall activity: 0.1%
    Achievements:
    VeteranTagger Second Class10000 Experience Points
    Sergeant Gleed's Avatar Senior Member
    Karma
    2046
    Join Date
    Mar 2014
    Location
    Right Now? The Planet Gand
    Posts
    4,872
    Points
    17,291
    Level
    31
    Thanks Given
    492
    Thanked 2,038x in 1,586 Posts
    Mentioned
    14 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by Chris View Post
    Burke argued ways to prevent what the counter-revolutionary Constitution has failed to prevent. You see, the Articles restricted powers explicitly: "To curtail any “delusive intoxications” meant chaining Congress to only those particulars granted in the proposed Articles of Confederation." Expressly so, "Each state retains its sovereignty, freedom, and independence, and every power, jurisdiction, and right, which is not by this Confederation expressly delegated to the United States, in Congress assembled." The Constitution left that open to implied powers.
    The Articles were going to establish true sovreignty for all the states.

    Because they did not work and the states were simply going to declare their independence from each other. The nascent nation would have been rent by civil wars and re-acquired by an England perfectly willing to foment exactly that.

    Did you ever realize the Bill of Rights had TEN Amendments, not just nine?

    What was that tenth one for?
    Last edited by Sergeant Gleed; 04-02-2019 at 09:24 PM.
    Freedom Requires Obstinance.

    We the People DID NOT vote in a majority Rodent Congress, they stole it via election fraud.

  11. #7
    Original Ranter
    Points: 858,899, Level: 100
    Level completed: 0%, Points required for next Level: 0
    Overall activity: 91.0%
    Achievements:
    SocialCreated Album picturesOverdrive50000 Experience PointsVeteran
    Awards:
    Posting Award
    Peter1469's Avatar Advisor
    Karma
    496516
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Location
    NOVA
    Posts
    241,648
    Points
    858,899
    Level
    100
    Thanks Given
    153,205
    Thanked 147,526x in 94,387 Posts
    Mentioned
    2552 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Just because the federal government has violated the Constitution and usurped the authority of the States does not mean the Articles of Confederation would have worked. It would have left a two weak group of States to the mercy of Europeans nations such as England and France.
    ΜOΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ


  12. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to Peter1469 For This Useful Post:

    Captdon (04-07-2019),MisterVeritis (04-03-2019)

  13. #8
    Points: 7,571, Level: 20
    Level completed: 75%, Points required for next Level: 179
    Overall activity: 0.1%
    Achievements:
    Veteran5000 Experience Points
    Luther's Avatar Senior Member
    Karma
    133
    Join Date
    Mar 2019
    Location
    Idaho
    Posts
    1,148
    Points
    7,571
    Level
    20
    Thanks Given
    13
    Thanked 123x in 105 Posts
    Mentioned
    1 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Say what you will


    These United American states has become the greatest country ever

    That's even with it's Majority apathetic citizenry

    All of you failed to state that our real problem is here, our citizenry


    "The tyranny of a prince in an oligarchy is not so dangerous to the public welfare as the apathy of a citizen in a democracy."--Montesquieu, Spirit of the laws, 1748
    FIREBRAND - Agitator



    un·known quan·ti·ty


    noun
    • a person or thing whose nature, value, or significance cannot be determined or is not yet known.


  14. #9
    Points: 665,213, Level: 100
    Level completed: 0%, Points required for next Level: 0
    Overall activity: 90.0%
    Achievements:
    SocialRecommendation Second ClassYour first GroupOverdrive50000 Experience PointsTagger First ClassVeteran
    Awards:
    Discussion Ender
    Chris's Avatar Senior Member
    Karma
    433307
    Join Date
    Feb 2012
    Posts
    197,542
    Points
    665,213
    Level
    100
    Thanks Given
    31,981
    Thanked 80,896x in 54,714 Posts
    Mentioned
    2011 Post(s)
    Tagged
    2 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by Sergeant Gleed View Post
    The Articles were going to establish true sovreignty for all the states.

    Because they did not work and the states were simply going to declare their independence from each other. The nascent nation would have been rent by civil wars and re-acquired by an England perfectly willing to foment exactly that.

    Did you ever realize the Bill of Rights had TEN Amendments, not just nine?

    What was that tenth one for?

    Look up implied powers, which the Constitution historically has been open to. The Articles specifically state all powers now expressly granted the federal government belong to the states.
    Tradition is not the worship of ashes, but the preservation of fire. ― Gustav Mahler

  15. #10
    Points: 665,213, Level: 100
    Level completed: 0%, Points required for next Level: 0
    Overall activity: 90.0%
    Achievements:
    SocialRecommendation Second ClassYour first GroupOverdrive50000 Experience PointsTagger First ClassVeteran
    Awards:
    Discussion Ender
    Chris's Avatar Senior Member
    Karma
    433307
    Join Date
    Feb 2012
    Posts
    197,542
    Points
    665,213
    Level
    100
    Thanks Given
    31,981
    Thanked 80,896x in 54,714 Posts
    Mentioned
    2011 Post(s)
    Tagged
    2 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by Peter1469 View Post
    Just because the federal government has violated the Constitution and usurped the authority of the States does not mean the Articles of Confederation would have worked. It would have left a two weak group of States to the mercy of Europeans nations such as England and France.

    The point here is the Constitution allows for an expansion of implied powers, the Articles did not.

    Article I, Section 8, Clause 18: "To make all Laws which shall be necessary and proper for carrying into Execution the foregoing Powers, and all other Powers vested by this Constitution in the Government of the United States, or in any Department or Officer thereof."
    Tradition is not the worship of ashes, but the preservation of fire. ― Gustav Mahler

+ Reply to Thread

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts