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Thread: Is There a Viable Conservative Alternative to Markets?

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    Is There a Viable Conservative Alternative to Markets?

    An interesting survey of conservative criticisms of markets.

    Is There a Viable Conservative Alternative to Markets?

    ...So what, exactly, is the conservative problem with markets per se, as opposed to a problem with generic aspects of modern economies, whether organized via markets or on a non-market basis?

    First, implicit in much conservative criticism is the Polyani-like argument that the problem is not about change itself but about the pace of change. The complaint is that market systems translate changes from trade and technological shocks faster to the domestic economy than would more-politically controlled transitions. The remedy would be to slow down the pace of these changes to a more human scale, allowing more time to acclimate.

    Criticisms such as Tucker Carlson’s suggest that American politicians, at the behest of elite economic interests, allow economic transitions to reflect lower-cost production overseas so quickly and abruptly that they cause unnecessary economic and social harm. Because this pain concentrates in lower socioeconomic strata, the argument goes, American political and economic elites do not care. Additionally, elites use the ostensible ideology of the autonomous market as an excuse to justify the neglect.

    This objection, however, divides more along the lines of populist/elite governance than it does between market/non-market economies....

    The speed at which elites in a nation allow a transition that harms particular sectors within that nation seems more a reflection of the allocation of political power and political organization rather than a reflection of its internal economic organization....

    Beyond the speed of transition, however, the more radical conservative criticism takes on instrumentalist rationality—the cash nexus—engendered by the penetration of market relationships into life and consciousness relative to non-market systems.

    Markets, and market rationality, the claim goes, liquidate traditional relationships. This is a well-known account, particularly in sociology, regarding the shift from “community” to “society” (or gemeinschaft to gesellschaft). This is a deeper objection to markets than the complaint that markets communicate economic transitions too quickly. Yet there are problems with the argument. It reflects economic determinism. This is ironic given the critics commitment to the superiority of the social over the economic. Beyond that, the argument reflects the temptation to romanticize pre-modern social and economic relationships.

    Whatever the answer, however, here’s the rub: As a practical matter, how can American society replicate ostensibly more-humane, pre-industrial non-market economic organization of the past while maintaining the efficiencies reflected in advanced modern economies? I have yet to see even a remotely satisfying answer to that question on the right.
    Tradition is not the worship of ashes, but the preservation of fire. ― Gustav Mahler

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    Mister D (04-11-2019)

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    May make for a good discussion. I'm on my phone lying in bed so I will address tomorrow but I'm not sure I understand the question. It's not an objection to markets per se (markets have always existed) but the place the economy has in society and its primacy over not just the social but the political. More tomorrow. Only doing short posts right now.
    Last edited by Mister D; 04-11-2019 at 09:04 PM.
    Whoever criticizes capitalism, while approving immigration, whose working class is its first victim, had better shut up. Whoever criticizes immigration, while remaining silent about capitalism, should do the same.


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    The paragragh beginning "Markets, and market rationality… " seems muddled. It's not markets that undermine traditional relationships in community, for they bring communities together, or could, but economy on a larger, global, anonymous level where it becomes primary over even political society, which ties in with the preceding paragraphs.

    Anyway it raises some interesting topics for discussion.
    Tradition is not the worship of ashes, but the preservation of fire. ― Gustav Mahler

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    Quote Originally Posted by Chris View Post
    The paragragh beginning "Markets, and market rationality… " seems muddled. It's not markets that undermine traditional relationships in community, for they bring communities together, or could, but economy on a larger, global, anonymous level where it becomes primary over even political society, which ties in with the preceding paragraphs.

    Anyway it raises some interesting topics for discussion.
    I think I saw the segment of Tucker's show that he's referencing. I saw it on YouTube not long ago. I was impressed.
    Whoever criticizes capitalism, while approving immigration, whose working class is its first victim, had better shut up. Whoever criticizes immigration, while remaining silent about capitalism, should do the same.


    ~Alain de Benoist


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    I can't seem to find it now. It's not in my history because I wasn't logged in. If I find it I will post it.
    Whoever criticizes capitalism, while approving immigration, whose working class is its first victim, had better shut up. Whoever criticizes immigration, while remaining silent about capitalism, should do the same.


    ~Alain de Benoist


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    True conservatism is not hostile to markets per se, but to the abstract "market" that has become the ideological foundation for what can be loosely described as neo-liberalism.
    Power always thinks it has a great soul, and vast views, beyond the comprehension of the weak. And that it is doing God service when it is violating all His laws.
    --John Adams

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mister D View Post
    I think I saw the segment of Tucker's show that he's referencing. I saw it on YouTube not long ago. I was impressed.
    I think I posted it a while back. His is similar to Jonah Goldberg's. Both seek to get back to earlier years of prosperity.
    Tradition is not the worship of ashes, but the preservation of fire. ― Gustav Mahler

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ethereal View Post
    True conservatism is not hostile to markets per se, but to the abstract "market" that has become the ideological foundation for what can be loosely described as neo-liberalism.
    Criticism doesn't always imply hostility. Some of the criticism I read has to do with how the economy has, on one hand, become all-encompassing overriding and even driving social and even political concerns and, on the other, how markets in becoming global have also become impersonal and isolated individuals even more than the state's supplanting society and it's customs and institutions.
    Tradition is not the worship of ashes, but the preservation of fire. ― Gustav Mahler

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    Found the thread where Carlson criticizes the mrket: Tucker Carlson: Romney supports status quo. But for everyone else, it's infuriating

    Here's another, Tucker Carlson Joins the Movement Against Market Capitalism, in which he says “Market capitalism is not a religion.... Any economic system that weakens and destroys families isn’t worth having.”
    Tradition is not the worship of ashes, but the preservation of fire. ― Gustav Mahler

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    Quote Originally Posted by Chris View Post
    Found the thread where Carlson criticizes the mrket: Tucker Carlson: Romney supports status quo. But for everyone else, it's infuriating

    Here's another, Tucker Carlson Joins the Movement Against Market Capitalism, in which he says “Market capitalism is not a religion.... Any economic system that weakens and destroys families isn’t worth having.”
    What I appreciate about Tucker's stance is that he calls attention to the human cost of economic changes and dislocation. This is too often overlooked or even dismissed by the liberal right. A presupposition off the OP appears to be that the economic efficiency should always be our primary concern. Should it?
    Whoever criticizes capitalism, while approving immigration, whose working class is its first victim, had better shut up. Whoever criticizes immigration, while remaining silent about capitalism, should do the same.


    ~Alain de Benoist


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