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Thread: Guy Throws Child Off Balcony Because Incel

  1. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Who View Post
    He's as crazy as a bedbug. The question is, why has he been allowed to run around with the freedom to cause injury and death? Rhetorical question - answer, because until that individual commits murder, no one wants to spend the money to keep the rest of society safe.
    Well, there are other factors involved. Sometimes, political correctness plays a part. The race card sometimes gets pulled in situations where law enforcement should be involved, but police don't want to deal with the blowback.

    There are plenty of examples of law enforcement going too far, but there are other cases where law enforcement was justified in using force -- and riots or protests still happen anyway.

    The decline of public mental health spending happened around the same time that involuntary commitment got a bad rap. A lot of the reformers of mental health a few decades ago have, in hindsight, made many mistakes.

    So while money is part of the equation, so is the change in perception of when the state can acceptably intervene.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ethereal View Post
    Generally speaking, communities and families are the strongest regulators of human behavior. So if a particular human is acting out like this, it's probably because they lack strong community and family networks.
    In most cases, yes. Granted, there are people who are so twisted mentally that involuntary commitment is about the only option. Thankfully, these people are statistical outliers.

  4. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by IMPress Polly View Post
    I'm of a somewhat less pessimistic view than this. I don't believe that the disproportionate inclination toward violence that we see from men as a class is at all inevitable, and that as much is shown in the simple fact that most men don't do things like what was described in the OP. So I have faith that things can be changed for the better.
    My opinion is that the main reason why women are less inclined toward violent solutions as a class is because we are socialized that way and men are not. Men are socialized to be a dominant class and violence has to be acceptable for any dominant class to exercise and conversely unacceptable for the subordinate class. If we socialize boys differently (and penalize men equally for committing violent crimes, incidentally, as women who commit violent crimes seem more likely to actually be convicted), then I think we would see the statistical differences between men and women overall on violent behavior come more into alignment. I really think that possessing more testosterone content accounts for very little of that difference.
    I wouldn't say it's pessimism. It's a just a realization that men and women are very different. One of the more counterintuitive things about culture is that men and women actually tend to become more different from each other physically in societies that are the most feminist. Traditional societies have the least sexually dimorphic people. The evidence seems to suggest that, when men and women are freest to act as they please, they pursue extremes in physical differences -- and this even extends into career choices. It's often lamented that there aren't enough women in STEM in the West, and people point out that more women are proportionally in STEM in many non-Western societies. What people don't seem to realize is this is due to freedom of choice. Few women choose to go into STEM if they have a lot of opportunities elsewhere -- particularly in jobs that are more people-oriented. Few of these service and people-oriented jobs are available in poorer economies, so STEM is among the few good-paying fields of opportunity outside of the West.

    Getting back to the violence thing, men basically just respond to personal crises differently from women. This is true regardless of culture. Socialization only goes so far. What this means is that we just have to make sure that mental illness is properly identified and remedied. It also means that we need to have proper security measures in place to deal with violent people. Some of this means encouraging people to be armed for self-defense.

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    Quote Originally Posted by IMPress Polly View Post
    Were the rates of violent crime lower in the 1940s though?

    That the mental health condition of the U.S. population today explains very little about the violent crime that remains is my point. I struggle with more than one mental illness and have thus far attempted to murder no one in the course of my life. And although I'm a strong proponent of gun ownership, I'd concede that even gun possession explains only a finite amount of it (as it's irrelevant to this particular case, for example). The single most common thing that murderers, rapists, and terrorists tend to have in common isn't that they are mentally ill or even that they have guns in their possession, but that they are one-sidedly (as in more than 80%) male. That's a problem that we should think about as a society, I believe. We need to think about how we socialize boys in order to actually solve problems like these, I believe.
    Violent crime has actually gone down in recent decades. It peaked in the 80s, but it's consistently declined ever since. Granted, because mass shootings are up, it may seem like the opposite due to media coverage. Overall shootings are down. Sex crimes are also down.

    Many hypotheses have been posited for this, but one is that the incarceration rate is so high that it might be keeping a lot of violent offenders from repeating their crimes (at least until they are released). Granted, it might also be that some areas are reporting crime to the cops less.

    Granted, again, if you look at crime stats of any era that we have the records for, men commit most of the violent crime. That makes it hard for me to believe that, somehow, we can change this via culture.

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    Quote Originally Posted by IMPress Polly View Post
    I agree with you on this, which is why I've been expressing faith that things don't have to be this way. But at the same time, when you look at incels as a political grouping of people, one has to concede that there is definitely a disproportionate tendency toward violent behavior to be found therein compared to just about all other political communities that exist and operate in this country. I mean seriously, white nationalists seem to be the only more violence-prone political community in this country, statistically speaking; the only political community responsible for more murders and assaults in North America in the last two years. I doubt that that's just a coincidence. You should seriously visit the main incel message boards whenever things like what's described in the OP happen and see what the reaction is. It's a very different reaction than what we see here or anywhere else. There are always threads praising the violence in response.
    I mean most ISIS members have never actually committed acts of violence themselves either. That doesn't mean they opposed them or weren't attempting to facilitate them or that ISIS is an okay organization that should be legal!
    Incels have problems, although they don't really have a defined ideology of violence. That's one of the fundamental differences between them and a hate group.

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    Quote Originally Posted by IMPress Polly View Post
    My view is that transgenderism is consequential of the ideology of gender. Gender is a conservative ideology that says males are this way (dominant) and females are that way (subordinate). Thus, one who fails to conform to their prescribed social roles can become convinced that it's because they somehow metaphysically belong to the other sex. Gender ideology was re-popularized in its current form by $#@! movement theorists in the 1990s and has been streamlined onto the phones of the masses in the age of social media (i.e. today). It hinges on the Victorian era theory of the "male brain" and "female brain", which is probably nonsense you yourself passionately believe in.

    Solving transgenderism means allowing for gender-nonconformity; it means not calling boys "$#@!" for playing with dolls and not referring to girls as "boys" for preferring toy trucks or video games, for example. Transgenderism is symptomatic of the fact that we need to broaden out and de-metaphysicalize our concepts of what it is to be male and female respectively. You see what I'm saying?
    The only difference between you and a transgender movement activist in this area is that you subscribe to an older form of gender ideology that stresses the importance of gender-conforming behavior rather than gender-conforming identity. A difference of stress isn't a difference of principle.
    There are core components of gender that don't vary between culture. Some of gender is cultural, but it has biological elements as well.

    While much of masculinity corresponds with dominance and much of femininity corresponds with submission, there are obvious cases of this not being the case even with traditional culture. Traditional men most certainly tend to forsake their own self-preservation in favor of protecting women and children during crises, for example. Historically, this is part of why men were drafted and women were not.

    This tendency for men to be protectors of women and children goes back to ancient times, however, and it displays itself even in non-traditional cultures.

    There is some room for flexibility in terms of gender roles (as shown by the last century), but there are certain constants as well.

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