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Thread: The Pseudo-Logic of Heartbeat Bills

  1. #11
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    Sergeant Gleed's Avatar Senior Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lummy View Post
    Ultimately, that determination is the mother's -- or if I had my way, the parents'. Her morality is no one else's business, and society is not impacted by her decision except that they insist on meddling in all things that have nothing to do with them, only then making it to do with them.
    So you are arguing that the Morality of murder is best defined by the murderer, it's nobody else's business, not even the victim.
    Last edited by Sergeant Gleed; 05-14-2019 at 02:24 PM.
    Freedom Requires Obstinance.

    We the People DID NOT vote in a majority Rodent Congress, they stole it via election fraud.

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  3. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lummy View Post
    Ultimately, that determination is the mother's -- or if I had my way, the parents'. Her morality is no one else's business, and society is not impacted by her decision except that they insist on meddling in all things that have nothing to do with them, only then making it to do with them.
    You argue for legalized murder. I do not.
    Liberals are a clear and present danger to our freedom and our society and our morals.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lummy View Post
    Please do make that case to the other 90% of the civilized world and 100% of the third world. Put your drive to meddle, control and make other men in your image to good use in, say, Nigeria or Somalia -- somewhere where they don't give a $#@! about your -- or anyone else's -- philosophy.

    The father is half responsible, or so I read once. But screw it. Just give her a coat hanger and send her on her way.

    About this issue especially, I do not care.
    If you didn't care you would not make an issue of it.

    You are fine with legalized murder. You are no better than Polly.
    Liberals are a clear and present danger to our freedom and our society and our morals.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Chris View Post
    I agree, personhood arguments are illogically subjective. We can see even you do not know how to objectively define when a living human being becomes/is a person. I'll stick to medical/biological definitions of life and when it begins at conception.

    BTW, an artificial heart beats or the person is dead.
    My religion goes by when the first breath occurs, which makes a lot of sense medically/biologically. Respiratory depression, arrest or prolonged apnea ultimately stops life or can lead to brain death. The heart, while neat, requires respiration. The body requires oxygen and CO2. It's really more essential than the actual organs. Nothing on earth would really be living without the process or a similar process. This seems like a much cleaner way of determining life, and I think the Jewish people were onto something when they/we came up with that gem.

    It is an interesting perspective, at any rate. Might be interesting to hear arguments about what the law or legal "rights" should be if a child is considered part of the mother until the first breath. If a mother is basically acting as nature's life support, which she is, does that impact her options or rights?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Adelaide View Post
    My religion goes by when the first breath occurs, which makes a lot of sense medically/biologically. Respiratory depression, arrest or prolonged apnea ultimately stops life or can lead to brain death. The heart, while neat, requires respiration. The body requires oxygen and CO2. It's really more essential than the actual organs. Nothing on earth would really be living without the process or a similar process. This seems like a much cleaner way of determining life, and I think the Jewish people were onto something when they/we came up with that gem.

    It is an interesting perspective, at any rate. Might be interesting to hear arguments about what the law or legal "rights" should be if a child is considered part of the mother until the first breath. If a mother is basically acting as nature's life support, which she is, does that impact her options or rights?

    Isn't that ensoulment? The Greeks believed it happened at 40 days after conception (Aristotle) and the early Catholic Church followed that, though now I think it happens at conception.*

    My argument is purely biological, at least as far as when the life of a unique living being begins.

    *https://www.thelancet.com/journals/l...025-4/fulltext
    *https://www.irishtimes.com/news/soci...1869-1.1449517
    Edmund Burke: "In vain you tell me that Artificial Government is good, but that I fall out only with the Abuse. The Thing! the Thing itself is the Abuse!"

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    Quote Originally Posted by Captdon View Post
    You argue for legalized murder. I do not.
    No, I argue for allowing others make their own choices. It's a stretch, IMO, to call abortion murder until such time as a the fetus is able to tell you how $#@!ing sick and tired this $#@!ing issue has grown. Yet one can't get out of the swamp because both sides want to impose their own sins on everyone else as a matter of accepted morality and behavior when neither are right. It isn't going to stop, so you can probably kiss your soul goodbye because at some point you're going to have to impose one or the other will on everyone else.

    My position is that it's none of my business, it's hers -- or rather, it's hers and her mates. But hey, we won't bring dad into this, eh?
    Last edited by Lummy; 05-14-2019 at 08:37 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Adelaide View Post
    My religion goes by when the first breath occurs, which makes a lot of sense medically/biologically. Respiratory depression, arrest or prolonged apnea ultimately stops life or can lead to brain death. The heart, while neat, requires respiration. The body requires oxygen and CO2. It's really more essential than the actual organs. Nothing on earth would really be living without the process or a similar process. This seems like a much cleaner way of determining life, and I think the Jewish people were onto something when they/we came up with that gem.

    It is an interesting perspective, at any rate. Might be interesting to hear arguments about what the law or legal "rights" should be if a child is considered part of the mother until the first breath. If a mother is basically acting as nature's life support, which she is, does that impact her options or rights?
    Yes, it does. Killing a baby is nor rational or moral. There is no justification other than "I want to."
    Liberals are a clear and present danger to our freedom and our society and our morals.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lummy View Post
    No, I argue for allowing others make their own choices. It's a stretch, IMO, to call abortion murder until such time as a the fetus is able to tell you how $#@!ing sick and tired this $#@!ing issue has grown. Yet one can't get out of the swamp because both sides want to impose their own sins on everyone else as a matter of accepted morality and behavior when neither are right. It isn't going to stop, so you can probably kiss your soul goodbye because at some point you're going to have to impose one or the other will on everyone else.

    My position is that it's none of my business, it's hers -- or rather, it's hers and her mates. But hey, we won't bring dad into this, eh?
    It is murder and you support it. You can come up with argument but the fact is that you support legalized murder.It is a biological fact. The baby doesn't have the same DNA as the mother, Everything else about her does, including cancer.

    Morals are not changed to fit convenience. Your post is cartoon =like.
    Liberals are a clear and present danger to our freedom and our society and our morals.

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    Quote Originally Posted by IMPress Polly View Post
    Several state legislatures are taking it upon themselves to define "personhood" as something that begins at one's first heartbeat, i.e. which is defined by the presence of a natural heartbeat. Okay well what about children, or any other people, with artificial hearts? I guess they're...not people then...right?

    You see, people, personhood is so much more than just having a heartbeat, human DNA, or "potential". (Any egg cell or sperm has the "potential" to become a person, but that obviously doesn't mean it deserves legal rights, and we can all recognize that much.) Everything of value to human beings -- from our ability to perceive the world around us to our ability to form relationships -- is made possible by birth. Without these sorts of capacities, our's is but a shell of a life in comparison; a life only in a technical sense, not in a recognizable one.
    I'm really not understanding what your complaint is, other than, "how dare anyone try and impede our right to rip live children from the womb and slaughter them".

    Soooo, do you think there should be any restrictions whatsoever on abortion? Full term? Make the baby comfortable, and have a conversation? What?

    Progressivism, ideas so good, they have to be mandatory

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    Quote Originally Posted by Adelaide View Post
    My religion goes by when the first breath occurs, which makes a lot of sense medically/biologically. Respiratory depression, arrest or prolonged apnea ultimately stops life or can lead to brain death. The heart, while neat, requires respiration. The body requires oxygen and CO2. It's really more essential than the actual organs. Nothing on earth would really be living without the process or a similar process. This seems like a much cleaner way of determining life, and I think the Jewish people were onto something when they/we came up with that gem.

    It is an interesting perspective, at any rate. Might be interesting to hear arguments about what the law or legal "rights" should be if a child is considered part of the mother until the first breath. If a mother is basically acting as nature's life support, which she is, does that impact her options or rights?
    So you're good right up to the moment of birth?

    Progressivism, ideas so good, they have to be mandatory

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