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Thread: The Pseudo-Logic of Heartbeat Bills

  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lummy View Post
    Until the baby can survive outside the mother, it isn't a developed to the point I would call it human. After that, I agree with you --that it is murder.

    The bizarre aspect of this is that for it to get this far, the woman -- or girl, probably -- went through sex education at school, maybe through some other venue, had counseling on birth control, probably had access to free birth control and day-after remedies, and still got pregnant. So you could make a case that she must have wanted to have an abortion over all else as a matter of choice.

    And that would be premeditated murder at some point.
    It is a human being as soon as conception. What else could it be?
    Liberals are a clear and present danger to our freedom and our society and our morals.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lummy View Post
    I have never advocated for either side, by the way. People have asked for my opinion and I've given it. That is not advocacy. It is a peculiar tradition of a lot of Christians to tell everyone else what is and what is not moral, how they should and should not behave, in all manner of making everyone else in their own image, and I have a problem with that.
    I'm saying that murder is murder. You take the life of someone with no legitimate purpose it is murder. It has nothing to do with Christianity. That's just another excuse abortionists use to do what is wrong.
    Liberals are a clear and present danger to our freedom and our society and our morals.

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    Chris's Avatar Senior Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by Captdon View Post
    I'm saying that murder is murder. You take the life of someone with no legitimate purpose it is murder. It has nothing to do with Christianity. That's just another excuse abortionists use to do what is wrong.
    And thus the weaseling personhood argument.
    Edmund Burke: "In vain you tell me that Artificial Government is good, but that I fall out only with the Abuse. The Thing! the Thing itself is the Abuse!"

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    Quote Originally Posted by IMPress Polly View Post
    That's certainly an interesting argument! However, it is not a medical one. In a strictly medical sense, of course an embryo or a fetus is technically alive. That's not disputed by medical science today. The question most of us are debating here accordingly is instead whether that type of existence constitutes personhood. (And yes, there IS a difference: medical science refers to embryos and fetuses as embryos and fetuses, not "unborn babies", for example. "Unborn baby" is not a medical term.) I argue that it doesn't because every experience of value to us is consequential of birth. I mean, for example, if one had to choose between death and living the rest of their life in say a vegetative state, unable to have such basic human experiences as the ability to perceive the world around them or form relationships anymore, which would they choose? It probably wouldn't be seen to make a difference, frankly. One might just as well be dead for all practical purposes. No one actually wants to live like that. You see what I'm saying? Every experience of value to human beings is made possible by birth.

    The essential functional difference between a grown individual in a coma and an embryo or a fetus is that the latter's form of life support is itself a living being, indisputably a person, with a will and needs of their own; a difference which I feel tips the scales of morality in favor of choice.
    How do you ask a baby in the womb what it wants? What you feel is just an excuse for murder. You are pitiful. There's nothing else but that.You can excuse it and make up any reason you want. It is murder.

    Every experience of value you are denying the baby. You choose to kill it.
    Liberals are a clear and present danger to our freedom and our society and our morals.

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    Quote Originally Posted by IMPress Polly View Post
    Are any of our conservative members going to actually engage with the points that I have made about the distinction between life and personhood or just endlessly recycle the same statements about the point at which life semantically begins?
    You don't have an argument. You have an excuse to suit murdering a baby. You don't get it. That's because you are pitiful and lack morality about killing babies. There is nothing to discuss. Murder is what it is.
    Liberals are a clear and present danger to our freedom and our society and our morals.

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    I support abortion up to age 26.
    Call your state legislators and insist they approve the Article V convention of States to propose amendments.


    I pledge allegiance to the Constitution as written and understood by this nation's founders, and to the Republic it created, an indivisible union of sovereign States, with liberty and justice for all.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lummy View Post
    I have never advocated for either side, by the way. People have asked for my opinion and I've given it. That is not advocacy. It is a peculiar tradition of a lot of Christians to tell everyone else what is and what is not moral, how they should and should not behave, in all manner of making everyone else in their own image, and I have a problem with that.
    Your problem appears to be with making any moral judgments.
    Whoever criticizes capitalism, while approving immigration, whose working class is its first victim, had better shut up. Whoever criticizes immigration, while remaining silent about capitalism, should do the same.


    ~Alain de Benoist


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    Quote Originally Posted by Captdon View Post
    It is a human being as soon as conception. What else could it be?
    If conception becomes the legal standard for what defines a life, then how do you go about enforcing this? Miscarriages can be induced, so that would make any miscarriage a potential murder to investigate.

    I understand why people may view life as starting then (since it is biologically consistent), but legally, setting this standard would be rather invasive in the long run.

    Viability is a moving target due to technological advances, but it was the compromise set with Roe v. Wade. Over time, technology will probably make it so that viability is at conception. By the time we reach that point, we'll either need to set a different legal standard for abortion, or we'll need to set up a robust support system to handle adoptions and orphanages.

    That being said, the adoption process needs some serious reforms anyway. It's ridiculously bureaucratic and expensive currently. Given the level of demand for adoptions, the process should be streamlined.

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    Quote Originally Posted by IMPress Polly View Post
    Several state legislatures are taking it upon themselves to define "personhood" as something that begins at one's first heartbeat, i.e. which is defined by the presence of a natural heartbeat. Okay well what about children, or any other people, with artificial hearts? I guess they're...not people then...right?

    You see, people, personhood is so much more than just having a heartbeat, human DNA, or "potential". (Any egg cell or sperm has the "potential" to become a person, but that obviously doesn't mean it deserves legal rights, and we can all recognize that much.) Everything of value to human beings -- from our ability to perceive the world around us to our ability to form relationships -- is made possible by birth. Without these sorts of capacities, our's is but a shell of a life in comparison; a life only in a technical sense, not in a recognizable one.
    On the flipside, some states have gone the other extreme by opening the door for very late term abortions.

    Personally, I'm in the middle on abortion. I think Roe v. Wade was a decent compromise, but I'm not in favor of states allowing abortion in the last trimester except for extenuating circumstances.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rationalist View Post
    On the flipside, some states have gone the other extreme by opening the door for very late term abortions.

    Personally, I'm in the middle on abortion. I think Roe v. Wade was a decent compromise, but I'm not in favor of states allowing abortion in the last trimester except for extenuating circumstances.
    Abortion rules should never have been decided by a court. That is not what courts are for.

    We have a fundamental right to govern ourselves. Legislatures have the role of making laws we agree to live under. Roe v Wade should be overturned. Let each state determine its rules.
    Call your state legislators and insist they approve the Article V convention of States to propose amendments.


    I pledge allegiance to the Constitution as written and understood by this nation's founders, and to the Republic it created, an indivisible union of sovereign States, with liberty and justice for all.

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