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Thread: Trees of old

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    Are pines and need trees as good CO2 filters as deciduous plants?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lummy View Post
    Do they know how much CO2 particular plants and trees take in? Can they look at a plot of land and from the species and number growing on it estimate how much CO2 is absorbed?
    I believe that they can to a degree. It's not an exact science, but what is known is that the more expansive the leafy canopy of forests, the more photosythesis that occurs. Even with conifers, the more dense the needles, the more photosynthesis. So a forest full of stringy trees isn't generating much oxygen or absorbing CO2.

    https://harvardforest.fas.harvard.ed...nthesis-canopy
    https://academic.oup.com/aobpla/arti...plv058/1795665
    https://www.nap.edu/read/1414/chapter/41#305
    In quoting my post, you affirm and agree that you have not been goaded, provoked, emotionally manipulated or otherwise coerced into responding.



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    Quote Originally Posted by Tahuyaman View Post
    You don't know what you're talking about.
    That's your go-to response. Prove it. Because the major forests of the world have been undergoing fires for millennia with most of the fire contained to the forest floor and lower dead branches of trees. I've seen the results of forest fire in younger forests. Nothing left but sticks. If what I'm saying isn't true, those old sequoia forests in California wouldn't exist today.

    The truth is that older trees are better able to resist fire. They have mostly lost their lower branches so the fire doesn't turn them into a roman candle like younger trees with lots of lower branches and they have much thicker bark to protect them from the heat.

    Here - a scientific explanation that you can argue with.


    "The adaptations of large trees to surviving fire are fundamental in the ecology of old-growth forests in frequent-fire landscapes. Depending on the species, trees in these forests have developed a number of characteristics to withstand and survive fire. Although fire typically kills small conifers with thin bark by overheating or destroying the cambium layer (van Mantgem and Schwartz 2003), most coniferous tree species in the mature state have thick, insulating bark that is relatively nonflammable, long needles, self-pruning lower branches, and deep roots. Giant sequoia (Sequoiadendron giganteum) also experiences rapid growth that raises canopies off the ground quickly, as well as latent buds and serotinous cones (Stephenson 1999). Jeffrey pine (Pinus jeffreyi) develops buds with thick scales that help withstand heat. Sugar pine (Pinus lambertiana) has thick, fire-resistant bark and an open canopy that retards the spread of fire through the canopy. Gray pine (Pinus sabiniana) has thick bark and is self pruning. Arizona pine (Pinus arizonica) has insulated buds, a high capacity to recover from crown scorch and an open crown. Ponderosa pine has thick bud scales; tight needle bunches that enclose and protect the meristems, then open into a loose arrangement that does not favor combustion or propagation of flames; high foliar moisture; and a deep rooting habit. The foliage and buds are also usually elevated away from the flame zone. With its high foliar moisture content, ponderosa pine can withstand extensive scorching as long as the buds and twigs, which tolerate higher temperatures than needles, are not badly scorched."https://www.ecologyandsociety.org/vol12/iss2/art18/
    In quoting my post, you affirm and agree that you have not been goaded, provoked, emotionally manipulated or otherwise coerced into responding.



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    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Who View Post
    That's your go-to response. Prove it. Because the major forests of the world have been undergoing fires for millennia with most of the fire contained to the forest floor and lower dead branches of trees. I've seen the results of forest fire in younger forests. Nothing left but sticks. If what I'm saying isn't true, those old sequoia forests in California wouldn't exist today.

    The truth is that older trees are better able to resist fire. They have mostly lost their lower branches so the fire doesn't turn them into a roman candle like younger trees with lots of lower branches and they have much thicker bark to protect them from the heat.

    Here - a scientific explanation that you can argue with.


    "The adaptations of large trees to surviving fire are fundamental in the ecology of old-growth forests in frequent-fire landscapes. Depending on the species, trees in these forests have developed a number of characteristics to withstand and survive fire. Although fire typically kills small conifers with thin bark by overheating or destroying the cambium layer (van Mantgem and Schwartz 2003), most coniferous tree species in the mature state have thick, insulating bark that is relatively nonflammable, long needles, self-pruning lower branches, and deep roots. Giant sequoia (Sequoiadendron giganteum) also experiences rapid growth that raises canopies off the ground quickly, as well as latent buds and serotinous cones (Stephenson 1999). Jeffrey pine (Pinus jeffreyi) develops buds with thick scales that help withstand heat. Sugar pine (Pinus lambertiana) has thick, fire-resistant bark and an open canopy that retards the spread of fire through the canopy. Gray pine (Pinus sabiniana) has thick bark and is self pruning. Arizona pine (Pinus arizonica) has insulated buds, a high capacity to recover from crown scorch and an open crown. Ponderosa pine has thick bud scales; tight needle bunches that enclose and protect the meristems, then open into a loose arrangement that does not favor combustion or propagation of flames; high foliar moisture; and a deep rooting habit. The foliage and buds are also usually elevated away from the flame zone. With its high foliar moisture content, ponderosa pine can withstand extensive scorching as long as the buds and twigs, which tolerate higher temperatures than needles, are not badly scorched."https://www.ecologyandsociety.org/vol12/iss2/art18/
    Now you are changing your argument. You still don’t know what you’re talking about.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tahuyaman View Post
    Now you are changing your argument. You still don’t know what you’re talking about.
    Why don't you tell me what you are talking about?
    In quoting my post, you affirm and agree that you have not been goaded, provoked, emotionally manipulated or otherwise coerced into responding.



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    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Who View Post
    Why don't you tell me what you are talking about?
    no one said second growth timber is identical to first growth. You don't have much knowledge of this subject. That's all.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tahuyaman View Post
    no one said second growth timber is identical to first growth. You don't have much knowledge of this subject. That's all.
    The problem here is that you are referring to trees as timber. You are talking about potential lumber and I am talking about trees and forest. Forestry companies are interested in board feet of lumber, mostly for construction. They want trees that grow quickly. They don't care about biodiversity. A healthy forest doesn't just comprise one or two species of trees.

    As Wyerhaeuser advertises:s
    Superior Seedlings: Using the traditional techniques of selection and cross-pollination, we develop seedlings that are hardy, fast-growing, and ideally suited for use as sawtimber. https://www.weyerhaeuser.com/timberl...able-forestry/



    In the last 8000 years about 45% of the Earth's original forest cover has disappeared, most of which was cleared during the past century. The Food and Agriculture Organization of the United Nations (FAO) recently estimated that about 13 million hectares of the world’s forests are lost due to deforestation each year. The annual net loss of forest area between 2000 and 2005 was 7.3 million hectares (equivalent to the net loss of 0.18 percent of the world’s forests).

    The mechanisms that cause deforestation, fragmentation and degradation are varied and can be direct or indirect. However, the most important factors associated with the decline of forest biological diversity are of human origin. The conversion of forests to agricultural land, overgrazing, unmitigated shifting cultivation, unsustainable forest management, introduction of invasive alien plant and animal species, infrastructure development (e.g. road building, hydro-electrical development, urban sprawl), mining and oil exploitation, anthropogenic forest fires, pollution, and climate change are all having negative impacts on forest biological diversity. And as forests are degraded, so too is biological diversity. This degradation lowers the resilience of forest ecosystems and makes it more difficult for them to cope with changing environmental conditions.
    https://www.cbd.int/forest/problem.shtml
    In quoting my post, you affirm and agree that you have not been goaded, provoked, emotionally manipulated or otherwise coerced into responding.



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    Quote Originally Posted by countryboy View Post
    While their numbers may be few, there is at least one Giant Sequoia Grove still in existence today. So yes, we know what they looked like, because we can see them in person. I've been there, you should check it out sometime.

    http://www.parks.ca.gov/?page_id=551
    Yes, see post 3. I said it somewhat wrong in the OP. What I should have said is there are only a few of these trees left in the world. And there are very few who have ever seen one. Most cannot even imagine what the trees of old looked like. I should have edited the OP, but I had already said it so I left it as it is, and just added in the other information a few posts later. But the truth is that there are only a few left in the world and they are under threat. And most people have never seen anything like them because the forests we know are nothing like them at all. Everyone knows about the redwoods. But even I had no idea that forests all around the world had giant cedars like the ones in the pictures. I thought the mega trees like the redwoods were special and the only ones. I had no idea that cedar forests were just as magnificent as the sequoias. I found out that we chopped most of them down during the industrial revolution. And the forests we have today are a shell of what they once were.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Who View Post
    I believe that they can to a degree. It's not an exact science, but what is known is that the more expansive the leafy canopy of forests, the more photosythesis that occurs. Even with conifers, the more dense the needles, the more photosynthesis. So a forest full of stringy trees isn't generating much oxygen or absorbing CO2.

    https://harvardforest.fas.harvard.ed...nthesis-canopy
    https://academic.oup.com/aobpla/arti...plv058/1795665
    https://www.nap.edu/read/1414/chapter/41#305
    Not to mention the bigger trees absorb much more CO2. But also trees stop absorbing CO2 during drought. And it seems that we are in a drought almost every year now. This does not bode well. It does not take too much logic to understand the consequences of this.
    We are all brothers and sisters in humanity. We are all made from the same dust of stars. We cannot be separated because all life is interconnected.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Who View Post
    The problem here is that you are referring to trees as timber. You are talking about potential lumber and I am talking about trees and forest. Forestry companies are interested in board feet of lumber, mostly for construction. They want trees that grow quickly. They don't care about biodiversity. A healthy forest doesn't just comprise one or two species of trees.

    As Wyerhaeuser advertises:s
    Superior Seedlings: Using the traditional techniques of selection and cross-pollination, we develop seedlings that are hardy, fast-growing, and ideally suited for use as sawtimber. https://www.weyerhaeuser.com/timberl...able-forestry/



    In the last 8000 years about 45% of the Earth's original forest cover has disappeared, most of which was cleared during the past century. The Food and Agriculture Organization of the United Nations (FAO) recently estimated that about 13 million hectares of the world’s forests are lost due to deforestation each year. The annual net loss of forest area between 2000 and 2005 was 7.3 million hectares (equivalent to the net loss of 0.18 percent of the world’s forests).

    The mechanisms that cause deforestation, fragmentation and degradation are varied and can be direct or indirect. However, the most important factors associated with the decline of forest biological diversity are of human origin. The conversion of forests to agricultural land, overgrazing, unmitigated shifting cultivation, unsustainable forest management, introduction of invasive alien plant and animal species, infrastructure development (e.g. road building, hydro-electrical development, urban sprawl), mining and oil exploitation, anthropogenic forest fires, pollution, and climate change are all having negative impacts on forest biological diversity. And as forests are degraded, so too is biological diversity. This degradation lowers the resilience of forest ecosystems and makes it more difficult for them to cope with changing environmental conditions.
    https://www.cbd.int/forest/problem.shtml
    Trees are timber. Once again you show that you don't know what you're talking about.

    You need to learn the difference between timber and lumber. We get our lumber from timber.

    Yes a lot of old growth forest / timber has disappeared. It's been replaced by even more reforested land. Timber is a renewable resource.
    Last edited by Tahuyaman; 05-15-2019 at 12:19 AM.

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