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Thread: The Dead, the Living, the Unborn

  1. #151
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chris View Post
    Uh, Who, you made the claim, now you provide the evidence, don't shift the burden to others.

    Has it ever crossed your progressive imagination that the legal complexity inherent in the modern centralized State is what caused this incomprehensible mess? That in fact, things are worse in modern times than prehistoric to pr-modern times?
    Start with this: https://www.detroitnews.com/story/ne...roit/26312107/
    http://www.parking-net.com/about-par...ory-of-parking
    "The difference between what we do and what we are capable of doing would suffice to solve most of the world’s problems.”
    Mahatma Gandhi

  2. #152
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    OK, so just to recall the context, you're trying to prove city parking laws were created in response to complaints.

    Your first link describes how the city of Detroit invented the stop sign. IOW, officials invented law. It mentions nothing of citizen complaints as the driving force.

    The second link describes how the first parking meter was invented in Oklahoma City. Merchants complained about traffic congestion and asked Carl Magee who invented the parking meter to limit parking times. Limiting parking times would increase congestion, not reduce it. And Roger W. Babson all on his own invented one and also filed for patent. Most people didn’t like it and likely complained, so by your theory of complaint-driven law, the meters should have been removed, but the city found it was a money-maker.
    Last edited by Chris; 06-02-2019 at 02:00 PM.
    Edmund Burke: "In vain you tell me that Artificial Government is good, but that I fall out only with the Abuse. The Thing! the Thing itself is the Abuse!"

  3. #153
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chris View Post
    OK, so just to recall the context, you're trying to prove city parking laws were created in response to complaints.

    Your first link describes how the city of Detroit invented the stop sign. IOW, officials invented law. It mentions nothing of citizen complaints as the driving force.

    The second link describes how the first parking meter was invented in Oklahoma City. Merchants complained about traffic congestion and asked Carl Magee who invented the parking meter to limit parking times. Limiting parking times would increase congestion, not reduce it. And Roger W. Babson all on his own invented one and also filed for patent. Most people didn’t like it and likely complained, so by your theory of complaint-driven law, the meters should have been removed, but the city found it was a money-maker.
    Underlying both articles was the problem of traffic congestion, people parking wherever they pleased and certain inherent dangers between traffic and parking. The role of city councils as representatives of the residents of cities is to deal with these problems and if necessary by creating ordinances.
    "The difference between what we do and what we are capable of doing would suffice to solve most of the world’s problems.”
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  4. #154
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Who View Post
    Underlying both articles was the problem of traffic congestion, people parking wherever they pleased and certain inherent dangers between traffic and parking. The role of city councils as representatives of the residents of cities is to deal with these problems and if necessary by creating ordinances.
    Well, now you've changed your position from law derives from citizen complaints to it derives from elected and bureaucratic elites--which, btw, agrees with my position on modern law.
    Edmund Burke: "In vain you tell me that Artificial Government is good, but that I fall out only with the Abuse. The Thing! the Thing itself is the Abuse!"

  5. #155
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chris View Post
    Well, now you've changed your position from law derives from citizen complaints to it derives from elected and bureaucratic elites--which, btw, agrees with my position on modern law.
    They are not unconnected, particularly in cities. Of all levels of government, the most intimate is that of residents in cities and their representatives in municipal government.
    "The difference between what we do and what we are capable of doing would suffice to solve most of the world’s problems.”
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  6. #156
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Who View Post
    They are not unconnected, particularly in cities. Of all levels of government, the most intimate is that of residents in cities and their representatives in municipal government.
    I see you're changing topics and your argument again.
    Edmund Burke: "In vain you tell me that Artificial Government is good, but that I fall out only with the Abuse. The Thing! the Thing itself is the Abuse!"

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    Quote Originally Posted by Chris View Post
    I see you're changing topics and your argument again.
    It's not black and white. Clearly people in cities complain to the elected representatives about things like parking and city councils also receive feedback from businesses and municipal departments. Bigger municipalities also have city planning departments whose job it is to deal with population growth. I have said this before, but you ignore the fact that this isn't a situation of one or the other but one of cause and effect with multiple avenues leading to change.
    "The difference between what we do and what we are capable of doing would suffice to solve most of the world’s problems.”
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  8. #158
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Who View Post
    It's not black and white. Clearly people in cities complain to the elected representatives about things like parking and city councils also receive feedback from businesses and municipal departments. Bigger municipalities also have city planning departments whose job it is to deal with population growth. I have said this before, but you ignore the fact that this isn't a situation of one or the other but one of cause and effect with multiple avenues leading to change.
    Your argument was all law derives from complaint. That's what I challenged. I didn't challenge that some law derives from it.

    From there you wander off into other topics and generalities.
    Edmund Burke: "In vain you tell me that Artificial Government is good, but that I fall out only with the Abuse. The Thing! the Thing itself is the Abuse!"

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    Quote Originally Posted by Chris View Post
    Your argument was all law derives from complaint. That's what I challenged. I didn't challenge that some law derives from it.

    From there you wander off into other topics and generalities.
    There is never any middle ground with you. My argument is that the origins of most laws is complaint.
    "The difference between what we do and what we are capable of doing would suffice to solve most of the world’s problems.”
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  11. #160
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Who View Post
    There is never any middle ground with you. My argument is that the origins of most laws is complaint.
    You started off all, gave possibly one example, which amounts to some, and now you're reaching for most.

    At this point it's not about middle ground, it's about chasing you around as you make unrelated claims about different things, almost as if you're in search of something you'll get right. Well, go ahead, not playing your cat and mouse game.
    Edmund Burke: "In vain you tell me that Artificial Government is good, but that I fall out only with the Abuse. The Thing! the Thing itself is the Abuse!"

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