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Thread: The Conservative Divide

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    The Conservative Divide

    Some excerpts from Jonah Goldberg on The Conservative Divide.

    The idea holding together the conservative movement since the 1960s was called “fusionism.” The concept, which always worked better as an organizing principle than a philosophical one, was that freedom and virtue were inextricably linked. Virtue not freely chosen wasn’t virtuous. Or as Frank Meyer, the foremost architect of fusionism, put it: “Truth withers when freedom dies, however righteous the authority that kills it; and free individualism uninformed by moral value rots at its core and soon brings about conditions that pave the way for surrender to tyranny.”

    ...Today, conservative forces concerned with freedom and virtue are pulling apart. The catalyst is a sprawling coalition of self-described nationalists, Catholic integralists, protectionists, economic planners, and others who are increasingly rallying around something called “post-liberal” conservativism. By “liberal,” they don’t mean contemporary progressivism as represented by the Democratic party. No, they mean classical liberalism, the Enlightenment worldview held by the Founding Fathers.

    What the post-liberals want is hard to summarize beyond generalities. They seek a federal government that cares more about pursuing the “highest good” than protecting the “libertarian” (their word) system of individual rights and free markets.

    On the other side are more familiar conservatives who, like George Will in his brilliant new book, The Conservative Sensibility, still rally to the banner of classical liberalism and its philosophy of natural rights and equality under the law. “American conservatism has a clear mission: It is to conserve, by articulating and demonstrating the continuing pertinence of, the Founders’ thinking,” Will writes.

    ...The post-liberals think that Enlightenment-based liberalism is the disease afflicting society because it has no answer for how people should live. They have a point: It is not a religion or moral philosophy. But it wasn’t meant to be....

    ...Where the post-liberals have a point is that humans are happiest in communities, families and institutions of faith. The solution to the culture wars is to allow more freedom for these “little platoons” of civil society from which people draw a sense of meaning and belonging....

    So the topic is these new conservative post-liberals.

    I disagree with the post-liberal "highest good" purpose of government. I agree with the "little platoons" idea -- "little platoons" is from Burke, Reflections: "To be attached to the subdivision, to love the little platoon we belong to in society, is the first principle (the germ as it were) of public affections. It is the first link in the series by which we proceed towards a love to our country and to mankind."
    Tradition is not the worship of ashes, but the preservation of fire. ― Gustav Mahler

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    American conservatism has a clear mission: It is to conserve, by articulating and demonstrating the continuing pertinence of, the Founders’ thinking,” …..snip~





    The post-liberals think that Enlightenment-based liberalism is the disease afflicting society because it has no answer for how people should live. They have a point: It is not a religion or moral philosophy. But it wasn’t meant to be.....snip~



    I think people will take to it if they drop the leftist term of Liberal. Its like a word of profanity nowadays. That being said.....there is more to the divide when one looks at Neo Cons and those with the Tea party ideology.
    History does not long Entrust the care of Freedom, to the Weak or Timid!!!!! Dwight D. Eisenhower ~

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    What would that never-trumping RINO whiner POS know about conservatism?

    There is no "Conservative Divide".

    There are conservatives, who realize this nation was kept from falling into the void of fascist socialism under the Rodents SOLELY by the efforts of the Americans to elect Donal Trumo, and there are tge back - stabbing turds like George Will, David French and thst Canadian Jonah "Whoopy" Goldberg.

    People are either going to fight to save this country, the conservatives, or they are going to whine in support of the slave masters, as the RINO crowd persists in doing.

    Does anyone believe people can be actual "conservatives" when they insist on getting the steaming vapors over my use of a simple memorable phrase to describe the crawling mindlessly ravenous vermin, and their pathetic Masters? Typing "Rodents" certainly all that needs to be said about them, and real Americans don't object.

    But True Conservatives (tm) of the Bill Kristol stripe certainly do.
    Last edited by Sergeant Gleed; 06-16-2019 at 05:16 PM.
    Freedom Requires Obstinance.

    We the People DID NOT vote in a majority Rodent Congress, they stole it via election fraud.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MMC View Post
    American conservatism has a clear mission: It is to conserve, by articulating and demonstrating the continuing pertinence of, the Founders’ thinking,” …..snip~





    The post-liberals think that Enlightenment-based liberalism is the disease afflicting society because it has no answer for how people should live. They have a point: It is not a religion or moral philosophy. But it wasn’t meant to be.....snip~



    I think people will take to it if they drop the leftist term of Liberal. Its like a word of profanity nowadays. That being said.....there is more to the divide when one looks at Neo Cons and those with the Tea party ideology.

    Yea, but since it all derives from classical liberalism, it fits.

    I've also heard them called illiberals.
    Tradition is not the worship of ashes, but the preservation of fire. ― Gustav Mahler

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    Quote Originally Posted by Chris View Post
    Yea, but since it all derives from classical liberalism, it fits.

    I've also heard them called illiberals.
    Those on the Right? Only after the ClintonCrat Kirsten Powers came out with her book calling the far left that.
    History does not long Entrust the care of Freedom, to the Weak or Timid!!!!! Dwight D. Eisenhower ~

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sergeant Gleed View Post
    What would that never-trumping RINO whiner POS know about conservatism?

    There is no "Conservative Divide".

    There are conservatives, who realize this nation was kept from falling into the void of fascist socialism under the Rodents SOLELY by the efforts of the Americans to elect Donal Trumo, and there are tge back - stabbing turds like George Will, David French and thst Canadian Jonah "Whoopy" Goldberg.

    People are either going to fight to save this country, the conservatives, or they are going to whine in support of the slave masters, as the RINO crowd persists in doing.

    Does anyone believe people can be actual "conservatives" when they insist on getting the steaming vapors over my use of a simple memorable phrase to describe the crawling mindlessly ravenous vermin, and their pathetic Masters? Typing "Rodents" certainly all that needs to be said about them, and real Americans don't object.

    But True Conservatives (tm) of the Bill Kristol stripe certainly do.

    You can't get past the superfical conservative/liberal divide, I see, but see little else in your emotional blather.
    Tradition is not the worship of ashes, but the preservation of fire. ― Gustav Mahler

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    Quote Originally Posted by MMC View Post
    Those on the Right? Only after the ClintonCrat Kirsten Powers came out with her book calling the far left that.
    Well, some call them that for their favoring big government when the classical liberal movement favored small.
    Tradition is not the worship of ashes, but the preservation of fire. ― Gustav Mahler

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    Quote Originally Posted by Chris View Post
    You can't get past the superfical conservative/liberal divide, I see, but see little else in your emotional blather.
    You're just jealous because the Real Americans see you fir what you are.

    Must be worse than the No Pants Dream, because you're the wanna be Emperor and you think it's only the children pointing out your disgusting moral nudity.

    No, the Real Americans know all about you people, and you're ashamed.

    Yeah, it hurts, but you can't grow without pain.

    The Real Americans are here to teach the True Conservatives (tm) how to become Americans, but you people don't want to learn.

    Hint: Real Americans aren't squeamish. We bait our own hooks and gut our own fish. We're even man enough to shoot our own dogs when the time comes.
    Last edited by Sergeant Gleed; 06-16-2019 at 05:44 PM.
    Freedom Requires Obstinance.

    We the People DID NOT vote in a majority Rodent Congress, they stole it via election fraud.

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    The conservative divide is more than obvious in the divide between pro- and anti-Trumpers. But to say conservatism is divided on so superficial a matter is to try and render it meaningless. No, the divide runs deeper and has to do with whether conservatism maintains or not its classical liberal roots. Nationalism while concerned with local communities--the little platoons of society--is also concerned with increasing the power of centralized government for, as it sees it, the highest good. The more classically liberal conservatives oppose that, not just Trump. We know this because the divide has existed since the emergence of the conservative movement in the 1950s in the divide between William Buckley who sought to promote the good by example and Russel Kirk who saw the promotion of good as the role of the government--it was this divide that the likes of Frank Meyer sought to fuse.
    Tradition is not the worship of ashes, but the preservation of fire. ― Gustav Mahler

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    Quote Originally Posted by Chris View Post
    The conservative divide is more than obvious in the divide between pro- and anti-Trumpers.
    Its a good starting point.

    Little girls who get the vapors over LANGUAGE cant be real Men, let alone teal Americans, and only real Americans can be cpnservatives.

    But to say conservatism is divided on so superficial a matter is to try arnd render it meaningless. No, the divide runs deeper and has to do with whether conservatism maintains or not its classical liberal roots.
    Oh, here we go. People who are afraid of honest words are going to attempt a double talk gambit.

    You can't protect "classical liberalism" when you are too busy wetting your pants over the word "Rodent".

    Hitler would have thrown Gandhi in a concentration camp and used him to cook schnitzel.

    You people want to pretend the damned Rodents aren't as corrupt and evil as hitler, that you can all pretend to be Gentle Homos (a term employed by Andre Norton in many if her novels. I employ it here because I know you'll be flustered by connotations Norton never intended. My word games are more violent.)

    The reality you are hiding from is this:

    The Rodents are this Age's fascists.

    In no Age can that Age's fascists be defeated with pleasant rules of discussion.

    In no Age can the goals of that Age's fascists be defined by the victim's refusal to be honest about the fascists among them.

    THIS Age's fascists have goals that are no different than the fascists of any other Age.

    They want you, personally, to be their slave.

    They want you, personally, to have no unauthorized thoughts.

    They want you, personally, to worship them as beings superior to them in every way.

    They want you, personally, to say only nice things about them, to accept what they say as the utmost truth, to never notice that what they say today is the opposite of what they said yesterday, and they want you to always obey.

    You're a good non-conservstive.

    You people don't fight the Rodents, you waste your time fighting the Americans to protect the feelings of your Rodent masters.

    You people want us to waste time and effort to restore something THAT NEVER EVER EXISTED. Many Rodents promote the false idea thst if something from the Americans is not perfect, it's not good enough and until it's perfect it should not be fought for, the old idea that the best is not the enemy of the good, it's the friend of the Rodent.

    I'm perfectly willing to accept the Good Enough if it means my axe he's though twice as many Orc necks (you won't get the literary reference).


    ,

    Nationalism while concerned with local communities--the little platoons of society--is also concerned with increasing the power of centralized government for, as it sees it, the highest go
    And now you build strawmen..

    Because True Conservatism (tm) hates a strong America and seeks the squishiness of globalism to line the pockets of the traitors running the True Conservative (tm) cruise lines.

    The more classically liberal conservatives oppose that, not just Trump.
    Orange Man Baaaaaad!!!!

    So is wamntng a strong nation, according to you pepple.

    We know this because the divide has existed since the emergence of the conservative movement in the 1950s in the divide between William Buckley who sought to promote the good by example and Russel Kirk who saw the promotion of good as the role of the government--it was this divide that the likes of Frank Meyer sought to fuse.
    That wasn't a divide between conservatives, that was Buckley identifying the evils of socialism.

    [Quote]
    Freedom Requires Obstinance.

    We the People DID NOT vote in a majority Rodent Congress, they stole it via election fraud.

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