User Tag List

+ Reply to Thread
Page 3 of 7 FirstFirst 1234567 LastLast
Results 21 to 30 of 63

Thread: The Early Church & the Origins of Religious Liberty

  1. #21
    Points: 264,399, Level: 100
    Level completed: 0%, Points required for next Level: 0
    Overall activity: 82.0%
    Achievements:
    50000 Experience PointsSocialVeteranTagger First ClassOverdrive
    Awards:
    Activity Award
    MisterVeritis's Avatar Senior Member
    Karma
    307876
    Join Date
    Oct 2014
    Location
    Northern Alabama
    Posts
    104,547
    Points
    264,399
    Level
    100
    Thanks Given
    94,662
    Thanked 39,250x in 27,871 Posts
    Mentioned
    385 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by Chris View Post
    The religious naturally bring their religion with them into government.
    No. Religious individuals bring their beliefs with them. The prohibition of establishing a federal church is about bringing the full weight of a religion into government. And then binding the two together to suppress the people.
    Call your state legislators and insist they approve the Article V convention of States to propose amendments.


    I pledge allegiance to the Constitution as written and understood by this nation's founders, and to the Republic it created, an indivisible union of sovereign States, with liberty and justice for all.

  2. #22
    Points: 264,399, Level: 100
    Level completed: 0%, Points required for next Level: 0
    Overall activity: 82.0%
    Achievements:
    50000 Experience PointsSocialVeteranTagger First ClassOverdrive
    Awards:
    Activity Award
    MisterVeritis's Avatar Senior Member
    Karma
    307876
    Join Date
    Oct 2014
    Location
    Northern Alabama
    Posts
    104,547
    Points
    264,399
    Level
    100
    Thanks Given
    94,662
    Thanked 39,250x in 27,871 Posts
    Mentioned
    385 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Who accepts God's gift if not the individual?
    Quote Originally Posted by Chris View Post
    They are, I believe, saved in their relationship with God. That's what I said, "One can look at religion as a relation with God." How can a relationship be individual? You've got words all twisted out of sense.
    Who accepts God's gift if not the individual?
    Call your state legislators and insist they approve the Article V convention of States to propose amendments.


    I pledge allegiance to the Constitution as written and understood by this nation's founders, and to the Republic it created, an indivisible union of sovereign States, with liberty and justice for all.

  3. #23
    Points: 665,303, Level: 100
    Level completed: 0%, Points required for next Level: 0
    Overall activity: 84.0%
    Achievements:
    SocialRecommendation Second ClassYour first GroupOverdrive50000 Experience PointsTagger First ClassVeteran
    Awards:
    Discussion Ender
    Chris's Avatar Senior Member
    Karma
    433316
    Join Date
    Feb 2012
    Posts
    197,554
    Points
    665,303
    Level
    100
    Thanks Given
    31,984
    Thanked 80,905x in 54,720 Posts
    Mentioned
    2011 Post(s)
    Tagged
    2 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by MisterVeritis View Post
    Can one experience a conscience without thinking? Of course not.
    Quote Originally Posted by MisterVeritis View Post
    I see. So in the Christian theology individuals are not saved as individuals? Fascinating. Who accepts God's gift if not the individual?

    Individuals have relationships. I see this whole existence thing is still a conundrum for you.
    Quote Originally Posted by MisterVeritis View Post
    No. Religious individuals bring their beliefs with them. The prohibition of establishing a federal church is about bringing the full weight of a religion into government. And then binding the two together to suppress the people.
    Quote Originally Posted by MisterVeritis View Post
    Who accepts God's gift if not the individual?

    Who accepts God's gift if not the individual?

    Let's tie your nonsense together.

    Liberty of conscience has to do with one's relation to God and one's communal relationship with others in practicing the same religion together.

    Individuals have relationships, but those relationships are by definition not individual. One's relationship with God and fellow practitioners cannot be by definition individual, they are relational, one spiritual, the other social.

    Yes, the religious bring their religious beliefs with them to government. You cannot separate the two.

    God's gift is a relationship with Him.

    This is liberty of conscience.

    Pursuit of happiness is something else but equally social.
    Tradition is not the worship of ashes, but the preservation of fire. ― Gustav Mahler

  4. #24
    Points: 264,399, Level: 100
    Level completed: 0%, Points required for next Level: 0
    Overall activity: 82.0%
    Achievements:
    50000 Experience PointsSocialVeteranTagger First ClassOverdrive
    Awards:
    Activity Award
    MisterVeritis's Avatar Senior Member
    Karma
    307876
    Join Date
    Oct 2014
    Location
    Northern Alabama
    Posts
    104,547
    Points
    264,399
    Level
    100
    Thanks Given
    94,662
    Thanked 39,250x in 27,871 Posts
    Mentioned
    385 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by Chris View Post
    Let's tie your nonsense together.
    Liberty of conscience has to do with one's relation to God and one's communal relationship with others in practicing the same religion together.
    Individuals have relationships, but those relationships are by definition not individual. One's relationship with God and fellow practitioners cannot be by definition individual, they are relational, one spiritual, the other social.

    Yes, the religious bring their religious beliefs with them to government. You cannot separate the two.

    God's gift is a relationship with Him.
    This is liberty of conscience.
    Pursuit of happiness is something else but equally social.
    Once again it is clear we have nothing in common.

    I think, therefore I am. My thoughts are my own. My property. I have the right to think as I choose. I may believe as I choose. That is liberty of conscience. That is also my pursuit of happiness. My thoughts are my property as much as my life is my property.

    Only individuals have relationships. Who accepts god's gift if not the individual?

    The religious bring their beliefs with them but not their religion. If that were not so then no religious person could ever hold a position or a job in any government.

    Your thinking is wholly alien to me. Foreign. Strange in its entirety.
    Call your state legislators and insist they approve the Article V convention of States to propose amendments.


    I pledge allegiance to the Constitution as written and understood by this nation's founders, and to the Republic it created, an indivisible union of sovereign States, with liberty and justice for all.

  5. #25
    Points: 665,303, Level: 100
    Level completed: 0%, Points required for next Level: 0
    Overall activity: 84.0%
    Achievements:
    SocialRecommendation Second ClassYour first GroupOverdrive50000 Experience PointsTagger First ClassVeteran
    Awards:
    Discussion Ender
    Chris's Avatar Senior Member
    Karma
    433316
    Join Date
    Feb 2012
    Posts
    197,554
    Points
    665,303
    Level
    100
    Thanks Given
    31,984
    Thanked 80,905x in 54,720 Posts
    Mentioned
    2011 Post(s)
    Tagged
    2 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by MisterVeritis View Post
    Once again it is clear we have nothing in common.

    I think, therefore I am. My thoughts are my own. My property. I have the right to think as I choose. I may believe as I choose. That is liberty of conscience. That is also my pursuit of happiness. My thoughts are my property as much as my life is my property.

    Only individuals have relationships. Who accepts god's gift if not the individual?

    The religious bring their beliefs with them but not their religion. If that were not so then no religious person could ever hold a position or a job in any government.

    Your thinking is wholly alien to me. Foreign. Strange in its entirety.

    You conflate liberty of conscience with the pursuit of happiness. One is based on faith and the other on reason. One is spiritual and the other material. And that gifting is relational, One giving to one.

    I think too that you are confused that I'm arguing the individual doesn't exist when I haven't. My argument is the individual exists in relationships. With liberty of conscience, the relationships are of two types: out-worldly with God and in-worldly with others who practice the same religion.

    And, yes, the religious do bring their religion with them to government--as we know there may be no religious test and the prohibition is that government establish no (state) religion. Just a few months ago Trump said the following: “One of the things that Mike and I were discussing just a little while ago—people are so proud to be using that beautiful word, God, and they’re using the word God again, and they’re not hiding from it,” he said. “They’re not being told to take it down, and they’re not saying we can’t honor God. In God we trust. So important.” @ https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/ar...oxhole/588661/
    Tradition is not the worship of ashes, but the preservation of fire. ― Gustav Mahler

  6. #26
    Points: 264,399, Level: 100
    Level completed: 0%, Points required for next Level: 0
    Overall activity: 82.0%
    Achievements:
    50000 Experience PointsSocialVeteranTagger First ClassOverdrive
    Awards:
    Activity Award
    MisterVeritis's Avatar Senior Member
    Karma
    307876
    Join Date
    Oct 2014
    Location
    Northern Alabama
    Posts
    104,547
    Points
    264,399
    Level
    100
    Thanks Given
    94,662
    Thanked 39,250x in 27,871 Posts
    Mentioned
    385 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by Chris View Post
    You conflate liberty of conscience with the pursuit of happiness. One is based on faith and the other on reason. One is spiritual and the other material. And that gifting is relational, One giving to one.

    I think too that you are confused that I'm arguing the individual doesn't exist when I haven't. My argument is the individual exists in relationships. With liberty of conscience, the relationships are of two types: out-worldly with God and in-worldly with others who practice the same religion.

    And, yes, the religious do bring their religion with them to government--as we know there may be no religious test and the prohibition is that government establish no (state) religion. Just a few months ago Trump said the following: “One of the things that Mike and I were discussing just a little while ago—people are so proud to be using that beautiful word, God, and they’re using the word God again, and they’re not hiding from it,” he said. “They’re not being told to take it down, and they’re not saying we can’t honor God. In God we trust. So important.” @ https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/ar...oxhole/588661/
    Individuals exist. We have relationships. We do not agree on anything.

    I see once again you rely on someone else to do your thinking for you.
    Call your state legislators and insist they approve the Article V convention of States to propose amendments.


    I pledge allegiance to the Constitution as written and understood by this nation's founders, and to the Republic it created, an indivisible union of sovereign States, with liberty and justice for all.

  7. #27
    Points: 665,303, Level: 100
    Level completed: 0%, Points required for next Level: 0
    Overall activity: 84.0%
    Achievements:
    SocialRecommendation Second ClassYour first GroupOverdrive50000 Experience PointsTagger First ClassVeteran
    Awards:
    Discussion Ender
    Chris's Avatar Senior Member
    Karma
    433316
    Join Date
    Feb 2012
    Posts
    197,554
    Points
    665,303
    Level
    100
    Thanks Given
    31,984
    Thanked 80,905x in 54,720 Posts
    Mentioned
    2011 Post(s)
    Tagged
    2 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by MisterVeritis View Post
    Individuals exist. We have relationships. We do not agree on anything.

    I see once again you rely on someone else to do your thinking for you.

    No one has argued that individuals do not exist. Please stop arguing strawmen.

    No one has argued individuals do not have relationships. Please stop arguing strawmen.

    The argument is an individuals act in relationships, here, under liberty of conscience, in a relationship with God and in relationship with fellow worshipers.
    Tradition is not the worship of ashes, but the preservation of fire. ― Gustav Mahler

  8. #28
    Points: 264,399, Level: 100
    Level completed: 0%, Points required for next Level: 0
    Overall activity: 82.0%
    Achievements:
    50000 Experience PointsSocialVeteranTagger First ClassOverdrive
    Awards:
    Activity Award
    MisterVeritis's Avatar Senior Member
    Karma
    307876
    Join Date
    Oct 2014
    Location
    Northern Alabama
    Posts
    104,547
    Points
    264,399
    Level
    100
    Thanks Given
    94,662
    Thanked 39,250x in 27,871 Posts
    Mentioned
    385 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by Chris View Post
    No one has argued that individuals do not exist. Please stop arguing strawmen.

    No one has argued individuals do not have relationships. Please stop arguing strawmen.

    The argument is an individuals act in relationships, here, under liberty of conscience, in a relationship with God and in relationship with fellow worshipers.
    I laughed. Individuals exist. We are finally getting somewhere. That was step one. Good job.

    Step Two: individuals have rights because individuals exist. The rights are individual rights.

    You can do it. Well, maybe.
    Call your state legislators and insist they approve the Article V convention of States to propose amendments.


    I pledge allegiance to the Constitution as written and understood by this nation's founders, and to the Republic it created, an indivisible union of sovereign States, with liberty and justice for all.

  9. #29
    Points: 665,303, Level: 100
    Level completed: 0%, Points required for next Level: 0
    Overall activity: 84.0%
    Achievements:
    SocialRecommendation Second ClassYour first GroupOverdrive50000 Experience PointsTagger First ClassVeteran
    Awards:
    Discussion Ender
    Chris's Avatar Senior Member
    Karma
    433316
    Join Date
    Feb 2012
    Posts
    197,554
    Points
    665,303
    Level
    100
    Thanks Given
    31,984
    Thanked 80,905x in 54,720 Posts
    Mentioned
    2011 Post(s)
    Tagged
    2 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by MisterVeritis View Post
    I laughed. Individuals exist. We are finally getting somewhere. That was step one. Good job.

    Step Two: individuals have rights because individuals exist. The rights are individual rights.

    You can do it. Well, maybe.

    I have never argued individuals do not exist. I just told you that. Yet you keep arguing it pointlessly.

    You declare that individuals exist therefore individuals have rights as you have 100s of times but not once have you argued out or explained the entailment.

    Besides, the topic is liberty of conscience, did you forget?
    Tradition is not the worship of ashes, but the preservation of fire. ― Gustav Mahler

  10. #30
    Points: 52,081, Level: 55
    Level completed: 76%, Points required for next Level: 469
    Overall activity: 0.2%
    Achievements:
    SocialVeteran50000 Experience Points
    jet57's Avatar Banned
    Karma
    2378
    Join Date
    Jun 2017
    Posts
    19,121
    Points
    52,081
    Level
    55
    Thanks Given
    1,698
    Thanked 2,368x in 2,004 Posts
    Mentioned
    284 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by Chris View Post
    The idea of liberty of conscience from Tertullian and others came before those wars, and the idea came to fruition after with the likes of Roger Williams, whose ideas Jefferson cribbed in his letter to the Danbury Baptists about a wall of separation. That wall aims to keep the government out of religion, thus religious freedom.

    Heed your own advice, son. And thanks for the ad hom, Mr Illogic.
    1: saying that your source is disingenuous is NOT ad-hom.
    Heed your own advice, son. And thanks for the ad hom, Mr Illogic.

    THAT is ad-hom. So now that we have that straight.


    2: Freedom of consciousness / mind is as old as human history, so ANY writer you may wish to bring into this will not be the first. What happens with institutions that "preach" such freedoms is what matters.

    3: Jesus himself said "love thy neighbor" and "as you treat the lowliest of you so you treat me"... and we all know how that went don't we.

    You see yourself as a conservative Christian so anything that you can find to bolster that self image is what you will post: you are
    proselytizing again. That is all you are doing. Your thread therefore belongs in the Religious forum, not history.

    Christianity as a power has all but locked up societies into the dark ages and a host of wars.

    Think of your message and the reality that surrounds that message before you proselytize as a conservative Christian.

    Your thesis is just dismissed by the reality of human nature.

+ Reply to Thread

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts