User Tag List

+ Reply to Thread
Page 1 of 7 12345 ... LastLast
Results 1 to 10 of 63

Thread: The Early Church & the Origins of Religious Liberty

  1. #1
    Points: 668,221, Level: 100
    Level completed: 0%, Points required for next Level: 0
    Overall activity: 99.8%
    Achievements:
    SocialRecommendation Second ClassYour first GroupOverdrive50000 Experience PointsTagger First ClassVeteran
    Awards:
    Discussion Ender
    Chris's Avatar Senior Member
    Karma
    433952
    Join Date
    Feb 2012
    Posts
    198,192
    Points
    668,221
    Level
    100
    Thanks Given
    32,234
    Thanked 81,541x in 55,054 Posts
    Mentioned
    2014 Post(s)
    Tagged
    2 Thread(s)

    The Early Church & the Origins of Religious Liberty

    Just when I started thinking I had discover an individual right, liberty of conscience, conservative Casey Chalk at the Imaginative Conservative reminds me of the communal aspects of religion.

    The Early Church & the Origins of Religious Liberty

    Tertullian, a North African Christian writer of the early third century, was the first to argue that because religious faith is an inward disposition of the mind and heart, it cannot be coerced by external forces. The Church Father writes:

    It is only just and a privilege inherent in human nature that every person should be able to worship according to his own convictions; the religious practice of one person neither harms nor helps another. It is not part of religion to coerce religious practice, for it is by choice not coercion that we should be led to religion.

    Tertullian is the first person in Western history to use the phrase “freedom of religion.” However, freedom of conscience has an even more ancient pedigree. The North African Tertullian draws upon various biblical evidence to support his argument, claiming that Jesus’s teaching that one should render unto Caesar what is Caesar’s and to God what is God’s communicates a separation of powers between the state and the church. The Apostle Paul, in turn, spoke of the Christian conscience as sometimes the judge of right action. In the Book of Daniel, the eponymous protagonist, as well as his friends Shadrach, Mescach, and Abednego, all reject Babylonian attempts to coerce them into pagan worship.

    From Tertullian to the Reformation, there is a significant Christian tradition that affirms religious freedom....

    ...It is ultimately the Englishmen—Roger Williams, John Owen, William Penn, and John Locke—to whom America and the West are indebted for their conception of religious freedom. Williams argued that liberty of conscience applied to all men equally, including dissenting Christians, Jews, Muslims, and even the hated Catholics. He also “severed the link between the two tables of the law,” meaning that he rejected any role for the state in the affairs of the church and vice versa. Owen, in turn, interpreted Tertullian’s earlier cited argument to mean that “liberty of conscience is a natural right” rather than one created and protected by the state. Penn, meanwhile, argued that this liberty of conscience necessarily extended to public worship. Locke, finally, incorporated some of these elements, but went even further by arguing that religious communities are fundamentally voluntary societies composed of individuals possessing “free and spontaneous” rights.

    ...In truth, religion always extends beyond personal beliefs and corporate worship. It bleeds into the public square, informing the decisions of its citizens. Moreover, contra Locke, many religious communities do not view themselves as collections of autonomous individuals, but as corporate bodies that extend across society and across generations. There is an ancient, robust natural law tradition supporting this idea, one that looks to other societies, like the family and even the state, as examples of communities that also aren’t entirely voluntary. One does not choose his or her parents. Nor does one choose his or her nation. These things are givens. They may in time be rejected by individuals, though even then such bonds are impossible to fully shake off. Religion, like the family, remains a vinculum societatis, a unifying bond of society....
    Tradition is not the worship of ashes, but the preservation of fire. ― Gustav Mahler

  2. The Following User Says Thank You to Chris For This Useful Post:

    FindersKeepers (07-02-2019)

  3. #2
    Points: 34,789, Level: 45
    Level completed: 56%, Points required for next Level: 661
    Overall activity: 0%
    Achievements:
    SocialTagger First ClassVeteran50000 Experience Points
    midcan5's Avatar Senior Member
    Karma
    71956
    Join Date
    May 2013
    Location
    Pennsylvania
    Posts
    5,955
    Points
    34,789
    Level
    45
    Thanks Given
    1,333
    Thanked 2,498x in 1,842 Posts
    Mentioned
    303 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Religion is a mixed bag for sure, but communal is a tough trip given its history. How communal is it given their support today of a republican party because they will elect judges who agree with their dictates. While a bit off topic I thought this youtube by a neuroscientist I have read fascinating. PS I am not Possibilianist, my signature gives my position.


    Wanna make America great, buy American owned, made in the USA, we do. AF Veteran, INFJ-A, I am not PC.

    "I have never made but one prayer to God, a very short one: 'O Lord make my enemies ridiculous.' And God granted it." Voltaire

  4. #3
    Points: 668,221, Level: 100
    Level completed: 0%, Points required for next Level: 0
    Overall activity: 99.8%
    Achievements:
    SocialRecommendation Second ClassYour first GroupOverdrive50000 Experience PointsTagger First ClassVeteran
    Awards:
    Discussion Ender
    Chris's Avatar Senior Member
    Karma
    433952
    Join Date
    Feb 2012
    Posts
    198,192
    Points
    668,221
    Level
    100
    Thanks Given
    32,234
    Thanked 81,541x in 55,054 Posts
    Mentioned
    2014 Post(s)
    Tagged
    2 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by midcan5 View Post
    Religion is a mixed bag for sure, but communal is a tough trip given its history. How communal is it given their support today of a republican party because they will elect judges who agree with their dictates. While a bit off topic I thought this youtube by a neuroscientist I have read fascinating. PS I am not Possibilianist, my signature gives my position.


    ...
    Religion is a mixed bag for sure, but communal is a tough trip given its history.
    Explain that rather than drift off topic.
    Tradition is not the worship of ashes, but the preservation of fire. ― Gustav Mahler

  5. #4
    Points: 52,081, Level: 55
    Level completed: 76%, Points required for next Level: 469
    Overall activity: 0.2%
    Achievements:
    SocialVeteran50000 Experience Points
    jet57's Avatar Banned
    Karma
    2378
    Join Date
    Jun 2017
    Posts
    19,121
    Points
    52,081
    Level
    55
    Thanks Given
    1,698
    Thanked 2,368x in 2,004 Posts
    Mentioned
    284 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by Chris View Post
    Explain that rather than drift off topic.
    They call it - "war".

  6. #5
    Points: 52,081, Level: 55
    Level completed: 76%, Points required for next Level: 469
    Overall activity: 0.2%
    Achievements:
    SocialVeteran50000 Experience Points
    jet57's Avatar Banned
    Karma
    2378
    Join Date
    Jun 2017
    Posts
    19,121
    Points
    52,081
    Level
    55
    Thanks Given
    1,698
    Thanked 2,368x in 2,004 Posts
    Mentioned
    284 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by Chris View Post
    Just when I started thinking I had discover an individual right, liberty of conscience, conservative Casey Chalk at the Imaginative Conservative reminds me of the communal aspects of religion.

    The Early Church & the Origins of Religious Liberty
    The article is rather disingenuous as it's written by a conservative who does not hold an objective view of Christianity, but is instead cherry picking in order to try and make the point that IT is a catalyst for human liberty; it is not, nor has it ever been. Religion in and of itself is a mechanism for power - period - full stop, and world history is replete with examples of just that.

    Religion is a meditation, not a power structure. Yet over and over again, we see, especially in this country, examples of how Christianity is enforcing its will onto others the very same way it has throughout human history, with violent results. The founders knew very well of the dangers of religious factions and therefore built this country's "code" on a separation of The Church from the rest of society, which is so clearly pointed out in the first amendment.

    I'm afraid your thesis fails.

  7. #6
    Points: 668,221, Level: 100
    Level completed: 0%, Points required for next Level: 0
    Overall activity: 99.8%
    Achievements:
    SocialRecommendation Second ClassYour first GroupOverdrive50000 Experience PointsTagger First ClassVeteran
    Awards:
    Discussion Ender
    Chris's Avatar Senior Member
    Karma
    433952
    Join Date
    Feb 2012
    Posts
    198,192
    Points
    668,221
    Level
    100
    Thanks Given
    32,234
    Thanked 81,541x in 55,054 Posts
    Mentioned
    2014 Post(s)
    Tagged
    2 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by jet57 View Post
    The article is rather disingenuous as it's written by a conservative who does not hold an objective view of Christianity, but is instead cherry picking in order to try and make the point that IT is a catalyst for human liberty; it is not, nor has it ever been. Religion in and of itself is a mechanism for power - period - full stop, and world history is replete with examples of just that.

    Religion is a meditation, not a power structure. Yet over and over again, we see, especially in this country, examples of how Christianity is enforcing its will onto others the very same way it has throughout human history, with violent results. The founders knew very well of the dangers of religious factions and therefore built this country's "code" on a separation of The Church from the rest of society, which is so clearly pointed out in the first amendment.

    I'm afraid your thesis fails.

    The article is rather disingenuous as it's written by...
    Nice ad hom, fallacious, meaningless, but nice!!

    Religion is a meditation, not a power structure.
    Not the topic. The topic is liberty of conscience.
    Tradition is not the worship of ashes, but the preservation of fire. ― Gustav Mahler

  8. #7
    Points: 52,081, Level: 55
    Level completed: 76%, Points required for next Level: 469
    Overall activity: 0.2%
    Achievements:
    SocialVeteran50000 Experience Points
    jet57's Avatar Banned
    Karma
    2378
    Join Date
    Jun 2017
    Posts
    19,121
    Points
    52,081
    Level
    55
    Thanks Given
    1,698
    Thanked 2,368x in 2,004 Posts
    Mentioned
    284 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by Chris View Post
    Nice ad hom, fallacious, meaningless, but nice!!



    Not the topic. The topic is liberty of conscience.
    As usual Chris, you can't compete. Sorry it's so far over your head that all you can do is snipe.

  9. #8
    Points: 668,221, Level: 100
    Level completed: 0%, Points required for next Level: 0
    Overall activity: 99.8%
    Achievements:
    SocialRecommendation Second ClassYour first GroupOverdrive50000 Experience PointsTagger First ClassVeteran
    Awards:
    Discussion Ender
    Chris's Avatar Senior Member
    Karma
    433952
    Join Date
    Feb 2012
    Posts
    198,192
    Points
    668,221
    Level
    100
    Thanks Given
    32,234
    Thanked 81,541x in 55,054 Posts
    Mentioned
    2014 Post(s)
    Tagged
    2 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by jet57 View Post
    As usual Chris, you can't compete. Sorry it's so far over your head that all you can do is snipe.
    Ad hom is ad hom. Pointing out your fallacies is not sniping. And, sorry, I don't wish to compete with your ad hom.

    Is liberty of conscience over your head that you can't discuss it?
    Tradition is not the worship of ashes, but the preservation of fire. ― Gustav Mahler

  10. #9
    Points: 52,081, Level: 55
    Level completed: 76%, Points required for next Level: 469
    Overall activity: 0.2%
    Achievements:
    SocialVeteran50000 Experience Points
    jet57's Avatar Banned
    Karma
    2378
    Join Date
    Jun 2017
    Posts
    19,121
    Points
    52,081
    Level
    55
    Thanks Given
    1,698
    Thanked 2,368x in 2,004 Posts
    Mentioned
    284 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by Chris View Post
    Ad hom is ad hom. Pointing out your fallacies is not sniping. And, sorry, I don't wish to compete with your ad hom.

    Is liberty of conscience over your head that you can't discuss it?
    If there was "liberty of conscience" Chris, there'd have been no religious wars now would there Chris? There'd be NO REASON for a separation of church and state here in the US now would there Chris?

    READ BOOKS CHRIS - educate your inferior mind Chris.

  11. #10
    Points: 668,221, Level: 100
    Level completed: 0%, Points required for next Level: 0
    Overall activity: 99.8%
    Achievements:
    SocialRecommendation Second ClassYour first GroupOverdrive50000 Experience PointsTagger First ClassVeteran
    Awards:
    Discussion Ender
    Chris's Avatar Senior Member
    Karma
    433952
    Join Date
    Feb 2012
    Posts
    198,192
    Points
    668,221
    Level
    100
    Thanks Given
    32,234
    Thanked 81,541x in 55,054 Posts
    Mentioned
    2014 Post(s)
    Tagged
    2 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by jet57 View Post
    If there was "liberty of conscience" Chris, there'd have been no religious wars now would there Chris? There'd be NO REASON for a separation of church and state here in the US now would there Chris?

    READ BOOKS CHRIS - educate your inferior mind Chris.

    The idea of liberty of conscience from Tertullian and others came before those wars, and the idea came to fruition after with the likes of Roger Williams, whose ideas Jefferson cribbed in his letter to the Danbury Baptists about a wall of separation. That wall aims to keep the government out of religion, thus religious freedom.

    Heed your own advice, son. And thanks for the ad hom, Mr Illogic.
    Tradition is not the worship of ashes, but the preservation of fire. ― Gustav Mahler

+ Reply to Thread

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts