Members banned from this thread: Captain Obvious


User Tag List

+ Reply to Thread
Page 2 of 3 FirstFirst 123 LastLast
Results 11 to 20 of 27

Thread: A Marxist View of Capitalism

  1. #11
    Points: 174,805, Level: 99
    Level completed: 29%, Points required for next Level: 2,845
    Overall activity: 23.0%
    Achievements:
    SocialVeteranTagger First Class50000 Experience Points
    Dr. Who's Avatar Advisor
    Karma
    870672
    Join Date
    Jan 2013
    Location
    Gallifrey
    Posts
    69,106
    Points
    174,805
    Level
    99
    Thanks Given
    12,830
    Thanked 12,935x in 8,813 Posts
    Mentioned
    206 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by Admiral Ackbar View Post
    For the love of God.. Here we go.... The "wrong" people have been implementing Socialism argument.

    I think Dr. Who needs to spend some time on the Socialism Sucks Thread

    See below this explains why Dr. Wolff is full of crap.

    Attachment 26408
    There is nothing in socialist theory that advocates highly authoritarian/militaristic states nor does it advocate its imposition upon a population but rather an organic evolution toward a different economic model for example as is happening with Mondragon Corporation, a cooperative headquartered in Spain with current revenues of over 11.2B Euros, more than 140 production plants and 80,000 professionals across five continents.
    In quoting my post, you affirm and agree that you have not been goaded, provoked, emotionally manipulated or otherwise coerced into responding.



    "The difference between what we do and what we are capable of doing would suffice to solve most of the world’s problems.”
    Mahatma Gandhi

  2. #12
    Points: 665,345, Level: 100
    Level completed: 0%, Points required for next Level: 0
    Overall activity: 85.0%
    Achievements:
    SocialRecommendation Second ClassYour first GroupOverdrive50000 Experience PointsTagger First ClassVeteran
    Awards:
    Discussion Ender
    Chris's Avatar Senior Member
    Karma
    433322
    Join Date
    Feb 2012
    Posts
    197,560
    Points
    665,345
    Level
    100
    Thanks Given
    31,988
    Thanked 80,911x in 54,724 Posts
    Mentioned
    2011 Post(s)
    Tagged
    2 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Who View Post
    That's what happens when you associate Marxist theory with the actions of a few psychopaths. Marx was long dead before kooks like Stalin implemented their (per)versions of Marxist theory. Does anyone blame Adam Smith for the development of capitalist oligarchies or Christianity for the Salem witch trials? Hardly.

    And no, I didn't plagiarize Wolff. I have been watching his videos, if that makes you feel better and much of what he says makes a lot of sense.

    Yes, you've been watching his videos. I watched one earlier and you're just repeating what he says. Like hat about Stalin not being true Marxism. It makes no sense whoever says it.


    Does anyone blame Adam Smith for the development of capitalist oligarchies or Christianity for the Salem witch trials? Hardly.
    Because he did none of that. He described how markets had emerged to replace mercantilism, that's all.

    He nor anyone invented capitalism, unlike Marx who invented socialism as a variation on capitalism.
    Tradition is not the worship of ashes, but the preservation of fire. ― Gustav Mahler

  3. #13
    Points: 174,805, Level: 99
    Level completed: 29%, Points required for next Level: 2,845
    Overall activity: 23.0%
    Achievements:
    SocialVeteranTagger First Class50000 Experience Points
    Dr. Who's Avatar Advisor
    Karma
    870672
    Join Date
    Jan 2013
    Location
    Gallifrey
    Posts
    69,106
    Points
    174,805
    Level
    99
    Thanks Given
    12,830
    Thanked 12,935x in 8,813 Posts
    Mentioned
    206 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by Chris View Post
    Yes, you've been watching his videos. I watched one earlier and you're just repeating what he says. Like hat about Stalin not being true Marxism. It makes no sense whoever says it.




    Because he did none of that. He described how markets had emerged to replace mercantilism, that's all.

    He nor anyone invented capitalism, unlike Marx who invented socialism as a variation on capitalism.
    Unlike you who doesn't parrot anyone ????? Evidence of the downfall of capitalism is fairly obvious and Stalin was a nut.
    In quoting my post, you affirm and agree that you have not been goaded, provoked, emotionally manipulated or otherwise coerced into responding.



    "The difference between what we do and what we are capable of doing would suffice to solve most of the world’s problems.”
    Mahatma Gandhi

  4. #14
    Points: 665,345, Level: 100
    Level completed: 0%, Points required for next Level: 0
    Overall activity: 85.0%
    Achievements:
    SocialRecommendation Second ClassYour first GroupOverdrive50000 Experience PointsTagger First ClassVeteran
    Awards:
    Discussion Ender
    Chris's Avatar Senior Member
    Karma
    433322
    Join Date
    Feb 2012
    Posts
    197,560
    Points
    665,345
    Level
    100
    Thanks Given
    31,988
    Thanked 80,911x in 54,724 Posts
    Mentioned
    2011 Post(s)
    Tagged
    2 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Who View Post
    Unlike you who doesn't parrot anyone ????? Evidence of the downfall of capitalism is fairly obvious and Stalin was a nut.
    I do but I credit them. In the democracy thread I just posted some ideas of Hayek, in the conservative thread I post ideas of E. O. Wilson.

    Right, according to Marxism capitalism is always on the brink of collapse. That thinking led to the rise of both Nazism and Communism, Hitler and Stalin, two socialist nutjobs of mass murder. Capitalism keeps right on truckin'.
    Tradition is not the worship of ashes, but the preservation of fire. ― Gustav Mahler

  5. #15
    Points: 174,805, Level: 99
    Level completed: 29%, Points required for next Level: 2,845
    Overall activity: 23.0%
    Achievements:
    SocialVeteranTagger First Class50000 Experience Points
    Dr. Who's Avatar Advisor
    Karma
    870672
    Join Date
    Jan 2013
    Location
    Gallifrey
    Posts
    69,106
    Points
    174,805
    Level
    99
    Thanks Given
    12,830
    Thanked 12,935x in 8,813 Posts
    Mentioned
    206 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by Chris View Post
    I do but I credit them. In the democracy thread I just posted some ideas of Hayek, in the conservative thread I post ideas of E. O. Wilson.

    Right, according to Marxism capitalism is always on the brink of collapse. That thinking led to the rise of both Nazism and Communism, Hitler and Stalin, two socialist nutjobs of mass murder. Capitalism keeps right on truckin'.
    I didn't quote or plagiarize Wolff. I've been saying the same things for many years. Wolff's references are not unique - they are ubiquitous. I only mentioned him because he's an economist. However Wolff makes an interesting point. He suggests that that WWI and WWII created anomalies in the timeline of capitalism. Capitalism ultimately reached its zenith in the 1990's and it's been declining ever since. It might have otherwise reached its zenith in the 1930's.

    Just a tidbit of information, but May day celebrations take place all over the world to celebrate labor. That May day tradition began in America on May 1st 1886. Post-WWII and the whole red scare thing, it was renamed Labor day and moved to September in order to divorce it from the socialist movement, but that movement was very strong in turn of the century America. WWI interrupted the natural progression. It resumed after the war and was gaining popularity, particularly because of the Great Depression, but then WWII happened and it wasn't long thereafter that the cold war began and socialism was identified with a foreign enemy.
    In quoting my post, you affirm and agree that you have not been goaded, provoked, emotionally manipulated or otherwise coerced into responding.



    "The difference between what we do and what we are capable of doing would suffice to solve most of the world’s problems.”
    Mahatma Gandhi

  6. #16
    Points: 665,345, Level: 100
    Level completed: 0%, Points required for next Level: 0
    Overall activity: 85.0%
    Achievements:
    SocialRecommendation Second ClassYour first GroupOverdrive50000 Experience PointsTagger First ClassVeteran
    Awards:
    Discussion Ender
    Chris's Avatar Senior Member
    Karma
    433322
    Join Date
    Feb 2012
    Posts
    197,560
    Points
    665,345
    Level
    100
    Thanks Given
    31,988
    Thanked 80,911x in 54,724 Posts
    Mentioned
    2011 Post(s)
    Tagged
    2 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Who View Post
    I didn't quote or plagiarize Wolff. I've been saying the same things for many years. Wolff's references are not unique - they are ubiquitous. I only mentioned him because he's an economist. However Wolff makes an interesting point. He suggests that that WWI and WWII created anomalies in the timeline of capitalism. Capitalism ultimately reached its zenith in the 1990's and it's been declining ever since. It might have otherwise reached its zenith in the 1930's.

    Just a tidbit of information, but May day celebrations take place all over the world to celebrate labor. That May day tradition began in America on May 1st 1886. Post-WWII and the whole red scare thing, it was renamed Labor day and moved to September in order to divorce it from the socialist movement, but that movement was very strong in turn of the century America. WWI interrupted the natural progression. It resumed after the war and was gaining popularity, particularly because of the Great Depression, but then WWII happened and it wasn't long thereafter that the cold war began and socialism was identified with a foreign enemy.

    You were saying the same things as him. You said you were. It's odd that for years you've been talking like Marx and when I point it out you get indignant.


    He suggests that that WWI and WWII created anomalies in the timeline of capitalism. Capitalism ultimately reached its zenith in the 1990's and it's been declining ever since. It might have otherwise reached its zenith in the 1930's.
    Anomalies? Timeline? Zenith? Decline? That's too vague.



    Mayday? What's that got to do with the price of soybeans?
    Tradition is not the worship of ashes, but the preservation of fire. ― Gustav Mahler

  7. #17
    Original Ranter
    Points: 859,122, Level: 100
    Level completed: 0%, Points required for next Level: 0
    Overall activity: 90.0%
    Achievements:
    SocialCreated Album picturesOverdrive50000 Experience PointsVeteran
    Awards:
    Posting Award
    Peter1469's Avatar Advisor
    Karma
    496584
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Location
    NOVA
    Posts
    241,700
    Points
    859,122
    Level
    100
    Thanks Given
    153,223
    Thanked 147,594x in 94,422 Posts
    Mentioned
    2552 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Thus says a totalitarian statist.

    Dismissed as an enemy of all mankind.

    Quote Originally Posted by midcan5 View Post
    "If you can cut the people off from their history, then they can be easily persuaded." Karl Marx


    All 'isms' are just isms. Communism doesn't exist nor does socialism or capitalism, they are all ideas and ideas don't govern or rule or really do anything except provide ideas and suggestions. Nor did they ever exist. Check what autocrats called their rule sometime. Do autocracies exist? Hm? Putin's Russia, Kim's North Korea. So then it is people and government that matter, that make the society and its economics. Food for thought below.


    "Capitalism is the ownership and use of the concrete but dynamic elements in a society - what is commonly known as the means of production. A capitalist is someone who produces more capital through the production of the means he owns. This necessitates the periodic reinvestment of part of the capital earned into the repair, modernization and expansion of the means. Capitalism is therefore the ownership of an abstraction called capital, rendered concrete by its ownership of the means of production, which through actual production creates new capital.... However, capitalism as conceived today tends to revolve around something called the profit motive, even though profit is neither a cause of capitalism nor at the heart of the capitalist action. Profit is a useful result of the process, nothing more. As for the ownership of the means of production, this has been superseded by their management. And yet, to manage is to administer, which is a bureaucratic function. Alternately, there is a growing reliance upon the use of capital itself to produce new capital. But that is speculation, not production. Much of the development of the means of production is now rejected as unprofitable and, frankly, beneath the dignity of the modern manager, who would rather leave such labour and factory-intensive "dirty" work to Third World societies. Finally , the contemporary idea of capitalism grandly presents "service" as its new sophisticated manifestation. But the selling of one's own skills is not a capitalist art. And most of the jobs being created by the service industries are with the exception of the high-technology sector descendants of the pre-eighteenth-century commerce in trade and services." p360 'Voltaire's $#@!s: The Dictatorship of Reason in the West' John Ralston Saul




    "Piketty's central discovery, if we may call it that, is that contemporary capitalism is over the long run steadily transferring huge quantities of wealth from the poor to the rich, reconstituting thereby the inherited or patrimonial privilege and power characteristic of Europe in the eighteenth and nineteenth centuries. This fact may come as a surprise to professional economists, but it does not particularly startle those of us who have squandered our youth and idled away our maturity reading Karl Marx. All societies exist for the purpose of transferring wealth from those who create it -- the poor -- to those who do not -- the rich. The academic professions exist for the purpose of rationalizing this transfer, the churches exist for the purpose of blessing it, and the arts exist for the purpose of decorating the transfer so as to make it as charming as possible [even though this often comes to nothing more than putting lipstick on a pig.]" Robert Paul Wolff in http://robertpaulwolff.blogspot.com/...nty-first.html


    "Capitalism leads to dole queues, the scramble for markets, and war. Collectivism leads to concentration camps, leader-worship and war. There is no way out of this unless a planned economy can be somehow combined with freedom of the intellect, which can only happen if the concept of right and wrong can be restored." George Orwell



    "The history of industrial development in the United States, often considered the epicenter of free markets, demonstrates the political nature of markets. The history of market formation in the United States reveals an industrial structure supplied by goods and capital extracted from slave labor and facilitated through a state-sponsored, genocidal land grab. Far-reaching government legislation protected domestic markets and infant industries from external competition, and federal and state governments played a central role in the development of physical infrastructure (canals, railways, telegraphy) and the creation of huge bodies of agricultural and industrial knowledge - all essential elements in the genesis of American industrial capitalism. At the same time, society's greatest inventions and innovations of the past two hundred years-rockets to the moon, penicillin, computers, the internet - were not bestowed upon us by lone entrepreneurs and firms operating in free markets under conditions of healthy competition. They were the work of institutions: CERN and the Department of Defense created the internet, while Bell Labs - a subdivision of AT&T, freed from market competition by federally granted monopoly rights-generated transistors, radar, information theory, "quality control," and dozens of other innovations central to our epoch." Nearly every advance in science, technology, and mathematics emerged from people working together at universities supported by government funding. Creativity and innovation come from many places. Companies produce influential innovations, but so do other institutions that operate outside the confines of the profit motive, competitive markets, and the bottom line." Nicole Aschoff, p59 'The New Prophets of Capital'
    ΜOΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ


  8. #18
    Points: 174,805, Level: 99
    Level completed: 29%, Points required for next Level: 2,845
    Overall activity: 23.0%
    Achievements:
    SocialVeteranTagger First Class50000 Experience Points
    Dr. Who's Avatar Advisor
    Karma
    870672
    Join Date
    Jan 2013
    Location
    Gallifrey
    Posts
    69,106
    Points
    174,805
    Level
    99
    Thanks Given
    12,830
    Thanked 12,935x in 8,813 Posts
    Mentioned
    206 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by Chris View Post
    You were saying the same things as him. You said you were. It's odd that for years you've been talking like Marx and when I point it out you get indignant.




    Anomalies? Timeline? Zenith? Decline? That's too vague.


    Mayday? What's that got to do with the price of soybeans?
    I've only been listening to Wolff recently. You Tube - it's entertaining. If you can't see how two world wars, a great depression and a couple of anti-communist "police actions" may have interfered in the natural flow of capitalism, you aren't looking very hard.

    Mayday or it's repackaging is illustrative of the influence of hyberbole and propaganda on the attitude toward socialism.
    In quoting my post, you affirm and agree that you have not been goaded, provoked, emotionally manipulated or otherwise coerced into responding.



    "The difference between what we do and what we are capable of doing would suffice to solve most of the world’s problems.”
    Mahatma Gandhi

  9. #19
    Points: 665,345, Level: 100
    Level completed: 0%, Points required for next Level: 0
    Overall activity: 85.0%
    Achievements:
    SocialRecommendation Second ClassYour first GroupOverdrive50000 Experience PointsTagger First ClassVeteran
    Awards:
    Discussion Ender
    Chris's Avatar Senior Member
    Karma
    433322
    Join Date
    Feb 2012
    Posts
    197,560
    Points
    665,345
    Level
    100
    Thanks Given
    31,988
    Thanked 80,911x in 54,724 Posts
    Mentioned
    2011 Post(s)
    Tagged
    2 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Who View Post
    I've only been listening to Wolff recently. You Tube - it's entertaining. If you can't see how two world wars, a great depression and a couple of anti-communist "police actions" may have interfered in the natural flow of capitalism, you aren't looking very hard.

    Mayday or it's repackaging is illustrative of the influence of hyberbole and propaganda on the attitude toward socialism.

    Sort of figured. Let me show the flaw in his thinking, in all Marxist thinking.

    Some time ago I posted one of Wolff's videos: What Is Socialism?. In the same broad macroeconomic terms he uses, briefly (follow link for more detail), according to him capitalism is built on this model:

    EL + LL = TL

    where EL is embodied labor, what most call capital, LL is living labor, what most call labor, and TL is total labor or what most call product.

    The profit from products is used to pay for LL and reinvest in EL. IOW, put back into the system to keep the gears of the machine grinding.

    Nothing complicated or surprising, right?

    Now here's the difference, according to Wolff still, between capitalism and socialism: Under capitalism, the EL is owned privately and the corporation decides what to pay to LL and reinvest in EL.

    OK, so far?

    Here is where Wolff's thinking is flawed.

    Capitalism is what you say Wolff says will collapse. You can't explain why, but let's assume it's true, it will collapse.

    But socialism is not a new model. It keeps the same model. It simply replaces private corporate ownership with collective worker ownership. But the model is the same, just different people own the EL and decide how to pay for LL and reinvest in EL.

    That is the flaw.

    I see you don't get it.

    Well, if capitalism will fail, then so too will the socialist system fail for the same reason because it is the same thing.

    Q.E.D.
    Last edited by Chris; 07-22-2019 at 08:55 PM.
    Tradition is not the worship of ashes, but the preservation of fire. ― Gustav Mahler

  10. #20
    Points: 174,805, Level: 99
    Level completed: 29%, Points required for next Level: 2,845
    Overall activity: 23.0%
    Achievements:
    SocialVeteranTagger First Class50000 Experience Points
    Dr. Who's Avatar Advisor
    Karma
    870672
    Join Date
    Jan 2013
    Location
    Gallifrey
    Posts
    69,106
    Points
    174,805
    Level
    99
    Thanks Given
    12,830
    Thanked 12,935x in 8,813 Posts
    Mentioned
    206 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by Chris View Post
    Sort of figured. Let me show the flaw in his thinking, in all Marxist thinking.

    Some time ago I posted one of Wolff's videos: What Is Socialism?. In the same broad macroeconomic terms he uses, briefly (follow link for more detail), according to him capitalism is built on this model:

    EL + LL = TL

    where EL is embodied labor, what most call capital, LL is living labor, what most call labor, and TL is total labor or what most call product.

    The profit from products is used to pay for LL and reinvest in EL. IOW, put back into the system to keep the gears of the machine grinding.

    Nothing complicated or surprising, right?

    Now here's the difference, according to Wolff still, between capitalism and socialism: Under capitalism, the EL is owned privately and the corporation decides what to pay to LL and reinvest in EL.

    OK, so far?

    Here is where Wolff's thinking is flawed.

    Capitalism is what you say Wolff says will collapse. You can't explain why, but let's assume it's true, it will collapse.

    But socialism is not a new model. It keeps the same model. It simply replaces private corporate ownership with collective worker ownership. But the model is the same, just different people own the EL and decide how to pay for LL and reinvest in EL.

    That is the flaw.

    I see you don't get it.

    Well, if capitalism will fail, then so too will the socialist system fail for the same reason because it is the same thing.

    Q.E.D.
    I would agree with you, but for two things - surplus AKA profit and surplus supply. Capitalism encourages the creation of more product than can be economically sold and often co-ops government in the process of overproducing ensuring that the government pay for the excess production and that the surplus that cannot be sold is generally destroyed. IOW people subsidize big business and hence the wealthy. It is also both wasteful and destructive of the environment. Alternatively, it demands that government protect that industry from competition. Either way it's not rational. It both wastes resources and/or ends up coming at the expense of someone, somewhere. Furthermore, the majority of the revenue from that surplus accrues to the smallest minority of human kind. It's unnatural. Even in a totally free market, the kind of economic disparity that currently exists would not. There is certainly no comparable situation in nature and nature should be the example of balance. It's not about totally equal outcomes, but about more equitable sharing of resources and more equitable valuation of labor.

    You have often promoted cooperative models of business, yet now you are against them. That is curious. What happened to your support for Valve? Don't you care for the overlap between libertarian and socialist business models?
    In quoting my post, you affirm and agree that you have not been goaded, provoked, emotionally manipulated or otherwise coerced into responding.



    "The difference between what we do and what we are capable of doing would suffice to solve most of the world’s problems.”
    Mahatma Gandhi

+ Reply to Thread

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts