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Thread: CCW killed by active shooters partner

  1. #21
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    Cletus's Avatar Senior Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by Common View Post
    Id like to add something here to maybe add some clarity. You cannot compare a citizen with a CCW to trained police.

    The Citizen most likely did not know to stay at the ready, he never learned it. Common sense of course if applied would have made him do so.

    Police do not stand down until they area is cleared, in a mass shooting situation that does not come quick. If a shooter is down they actively seek other shooters and do not stand down or should I say should not, until the entire area is cleared and the injured have been secured.

    A mass shooting is the most stressful scarey situation to be in, no matter how much training you have. You have to worry about many things at once, identify the shooter do not err and shoot a civilian, watch you back, a myriad of thoughts and emotion and thats if your trained or not.

    I believe the CCW just didnt know
    People sometimes forget that when the Police arrive on the scene, they have to figure who the good guys are and who the bad guys are. They can't afford to just assume you are the good guy. They are also emotionally hyped because they don't know who is who.That is why it is so important to immediately comply with their instructions, even if you think they may be counterproductive at that specific moment. They will figure things out pretty quick.
    "All laws which are repugnant to the Constitution are null and void." Marbury Vs. Madison, 5 US (2 Cranch) 137, 174, 176, (1803). "Where rights secured by the Constitution are involved, there can be no rule making or legislation which would abrogate them." Miranda Vs. Arizona, 384 US 436 p. 491.

  2. #22
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    Cletus's Avatar Senior Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by Common View Post
    There are many positions at the ready, along with the sur position there is the sul, which I personally think is worthless and dangerous.
    I actually like the sul position for scanning for secondary threats after the primary threat has been neutralized. When I mentioned the sur position earlier, I actually meant "sul". (Sul is Portugese for South. Sur is Spanish for South. I live in New Mexico). When I started doing it, before it became popular, we called it the "Safety Circle Scan Position". I tend to still think of it that way. I practice it high on the chest instead of lower on the abdomen. What I like about is that you can do a 360 degree scan without crossing anyone with your muzzle. A lot of people like the compressed ready for a scan position, but I have noticed that most people who use that only scan left and right and the gun remains stationary, oriented toward the primary threat.


    We and remember im outdated, used the High Ready position
    I think the High Ready is much better than the low ready and it is better than the Sul Position as a ready position, although I still prefer Sul for a 360 degree scan. High ready is a good position. I really don't get why anyone, especially law enforcement would use a Low Ready.
    "All laws which are repugnant to the Constitution are null and void." Marbury Vs. Madison, 5 US (2 Cranch) 137, 174, 176, (1803). "Where rights secured by the Constitution are involved, there can be no rule making or legislation which would abrogate them." Miranda Vs. Arizona, 384 US 436 p. 491.

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    Standing Wolf's Avatar Senior Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cletus View Post
    Without doubt, that is the best option, but it isn't going to always be an option. You just have to trust that the police are going to be properly trained and calm enough to follow that training before they shoot.
    After seeing the way some cops freak out under even moderately stressful conditions, I'm afraid that trust is largely just not there. Between veterans turned LEO who believe they're still operating under the rules of engagement in Afghanistan and the seeming emphasis on going home safely at the end of their shift even if they have to shoot any civilian who looks at them sideways, I'm afraid that trusting in the average cop to remain calm is a potentially big loss scenario. This coming from somebody who works around cops every day and for the most part likes and appreciates them. Maybe things would be different if courts held the police to the same standard, when it comes to shootings, as they hold civilians, but far too much of the time they do not, and cops know that.
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  4. #24
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    BenjaminO's Avatar Senior Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by Collateral Damage View Post
    It has happened. It's also a possibility a person has to take into consideration. But do you think this negates the times when a CCW holder has been able to stop a shooter? Not everyone is geared to do what needs to be done in these situations, the guard in the Parkland shooting is proof of that.

    Interesting that you feel teachers should not be armed, if they so choose. Those that would choose to do so, already have their CCW in life outside of school, it just expands it, if they so choose. No one needs to know who is or isn't carrying, just like a day on the sidewalk, you have (or should not have) any idea who is carrying or not. And that helps, because, does the bad guy really want to take that chance?

    "gun free zones' are like shooting ducks.... you know that no one is going to shoot back, so easy targets.
    Good questions.
    First, I think any CCW holder that has stopped a crime should get a medal.
    As far as teachers and most CCW holders, they have not received the level of training needed and don't have the experience for a high stress live fire situation.
    The thought of an armed teacher has drawbacks. They probably would have limited training if any live fire experience. Also they would need to discern how to engage the shooter without endangering the students they are trying to protect. There would be students running everywhere in the chaos. What if they missed and shot a student or by drawing fire they get a student killed? Or they hesitate because their field of fire is not clear.
    There's just so many questions regarding arming teachers.

    I agree with what you are saying about those gun free zones.
    I wish there was an easy solution.
    It's not the bridges burned that bother me but the ones that I never crossed

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    Quote Originally Posted by nathanbforrest45 View Post
    Is it just me or does anyone else think Safety, BenjaminO and Alexa are gloating that a concerned citizen was gunned down while trying to save other citizens.

    The fact is multiple shoots in a mass shooting is an anomaly. Most of these mass shootings are carried out by a single shooter so the fact this shooter had an partner was out of the norm. The citizen trying to save others should be considered a hero, not some ignorant hillbilly. He did what 99% of the rest of us would not do, run into danger rather than away from it. Did his death stop the carnage after he was shot? How many ccw citizens have been gunned down in similar circumstances vs being able to stop the shooter?

    Shame on all of those who believe the best course of action is to sit down and wait to be gunned down.
    It's you alright. I wasn't gloating about any such thing.
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  6. #26
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    Collateral Damage's Avatar Senior Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by BenjaminO View Post
    Good questions.
    First, I think any CCW holder that has stopped a crime should get a medal.
    As far as teachers and most CCW holders, they have not received the level of training needed and don't have the experience for a high stress live fire situation.
    The thought of an armed teacher has drawbacks. They probably would have limited training if any live fire experience. Also they would need to discern how to engage the shooter without endangering the students they are trying to protect. There would be students running everywhere in the chaos. What if they missed and shot a student or by drawing fire they get a student killed? Or they hesitate because their field of fire is not clear.
    There's just so many questions regarding arming teachers.

    I agree with what you are saying about those gun free zones.
    I wish there was an easy solution.
    Part of the responsibility of a CCW is knowing when a situation is out of your league.

    Of course additional training would be expected for a teacher or others working around children or other highly excitable individuals. I would be astounded someone would think otherwise. Personally, I think people let their skills lag too often. I'm guilty also, who wants to drag out to the range after a 50+ hour workweek?

    The bottom line is, there is responsibilities that come with rights, and each must measure their own mindset. If you can't handle intense immediate action situations, you are better off leaving it in the holster. However, that in no way should be construed as telling people they shouldn't carry, or restrict who can carry. And for the sanity of everyone, get rid of the 'gun free zone'.
    I never lose.... I either win, or I learn.

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