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Thread: What is the basis for rights?

  1. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ethereal View Post
    Reason.

    Natural rights, like natural law, can be discovered by means of right reason, Thomas Aquinas. But not designed by reason.
    Edmund Burke: "In vain you tell me that Artificial Government is good, but that I fall out only with the Abuse. The Thing! the Thing itself is the Abuse!"

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    Quote Originally Posted by Captain Obvious View Post
    Basis for rights?

    Your ability to protect them, or you collective ability to protect them with like minds.

    Outside of that, good luck. You're $#@!ed, literally beyond that.
    I agree, but how would anyone know they had rights worth protecting without first discovering those rights through the use of reason?
    Two things awe me most, the starry sky above me and the moral law within me.
    --Immanuel Kant

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    Quote Originally Posted by Chris View Post
    Natural rights, like natural law, can be discovered by means of right reason, Thomas Aquinas. But not designed by reason.
    Is there some reason you're telling me this?
    Two things awe me most, the starry sky above me and the moral law within me.
    --Immanuel Kant

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    Crepitus's Avatar Senior Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rationalist View Post
    If you believe that, then it sounds like rights are arbitrary and are just a matter of convincing people that something should be a right. That does actually explain very well the whole mentality of declaring healthcare a right.
    Rights and morals are 100% arbitrary.

    It's not about "convincing" in most cases. Societies grow kinda organically. Circumstances, technology level, and many other things influence it. Generally the harsher the conditions the less people have rights. There are exceptions but that hold true more often than not.
    I'm baaaaaaaaaaack!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Chris View Post
    But do you not believe you have a right to defend your life against that lion? That'd what rights, natural rights, are about, not whether you win against the lion and live.
    That's not a "right", that's just instinct. Human beings are not lemmings.
    I'm baaaaaaaaaaack!

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    Individual Rights arise from need. An individual has a Right to self-defense. That is the most primal need. The method is determined by the tech of the times, but it doesn't change the most basic Right to self-defense. That Right can be used to protect life and liberty. Everything else is societal.
    For waltky: http://quakes.globalincidentmap.com/
    "The Nation that makes a great distinction between its scholars and its warriors will have its thinking done by cowards and its fighting done by fools."
    - Thucydides

    "Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote" B. Franklin
    Igitur qui desiderat pacem, praeparet bellum

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ethereal View Post
    Is there some reason you're telling me this?
    Because reason is not the basis of rights.
    Edmund Burke: "In vain you tell me that Artificial Government is good, but that I fall out only with the Abuse. The Thing! the Thing itself is the Abuse!"

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    Quote Originally Posted by Crepitus View Post
    That's not a "right", that's just instinct. Human beings are not lemmings.
    Well, then, by all means, explain to us what you think a right is. You seem to be in denial.
    Edmund Burke: "In vain you tell me that Artificial Government is good, but that I fall out only with the Abuse. The Thing! the Thing itself is the Abuse!"

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    Quote Originally Posted by Peter1469 View Post
    Right.

    You can accept natural rights from a religious or secular point of view. First Things by Hadley Arkes is a good resource.

    Arkes is a good way to understanding rights in terms of--far beyond mere instinct--justifications and condemnations of our actions. We have a right to defend ourselves. Killing another is generally justified if it's in self-defense; murder is condemned.
    Edmund Burke: "In vain you tell me that Artificial Government is good, but that I fall out only with the Abuse. The Thing! the Thing itself is the Abuse!"

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    Quote Originally Posted by stjames1_53 View Post
    Individual Rights arise from need. An individual has a Right to self-defense. That is the most primal need. The method is determined by the tech of the times, but it doesn't change the most basic Right to self-defense. That Right can be used to protect life and liberty. Everything else is societal.
    Agree with all of that except the individual vs society part. Rights always involve more than an individual, they are societal and cultural and emerge from ancient religion.
    Edmund Burke: "In vain you tell me that Artificial Government is good, but that I fall out only with the Abuse. The Thing! the Thing itself is the Abuse!"

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