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Thread: To Extraordinary People who Disagree With Me on Welfare System.

  1. #31
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    Chris's Avatar Senior Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by MisterVeritis View Post
    Yeah, Heyek really screwed that one up.
    How's that?
    Tradition is not the worship of ashes, but the preservation of fire. ― Gustav Mahler

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    MisterVeritis's Avatar Senior Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chris View Post
    How's that?
    He suggested socialism as a solution. Socialism is poison.
    Call your state legislators and insist they approve the Article V convention of States to propose amendments.


    I pledge allegiance to the Constitution as written and understood by this nation's founders, and to the Republic it created, an indivisible union of sovereign States, with liberty and justice for all.

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    Rationalist's Avatar Senior Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by MisterVeritis View Post
    From each according to his ability, to each according to his need, comrade?
    Eh, UBI is still better than the current system. It should be just enough to survive off of, but low enough to still encourage working.

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    Part of the failure of welfare is that it is an all or nothing system. You cannot make enough to be able to eliminate welfare when you are first on the job market. Welfare pays, in many cases, the equivalent of $35,000.00 a year or more. No first time job pays that much. So, its more advantageous to stay on welfare then it is to try to train for a job to be able to get off welfare.

    I have proposed that welfare payments be tied to any income you might make. I would propose that for every $2.00 of income you could make in the private sector you lose $1.00 of welfare. In this manner you will reach a point that your private sector income would be greater than your welfare income and you could use the training for better and more well paying jobs. Right now the system is rigged to keep you dependent on the government. I once had an employee who had a debilitating bone disease. Her bones were like glass and easily broken. She needed insurance. I could not afford the high cost of her insurance so she quit and went on welfare just for the insurance. Had she been able to receive insurance though Medicaid she could have continued working for me and since she was extremely talented would have eventually been quite well paid. Instead she simply became another welfare statistic.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rationalist View Post
    Eh, UBI is still better than the current system. It should be just enough to survive off of, but low enough to still encourage working.
    No. It isn't. It will be a starting point. No government program ever shrinks.
    Call your state legislators and insist they approve the Article V convention of States to propose amendments.


    I pledge allegiance to the Constitution as written and understood by this nation's founders, and to the Republic it created, an indivisible union of sovereign States, with liberty and justice for all.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MisterVeritis View Post
    No. It isn't. It will be a starting point. No government program ever shrinks.
    If UBI replaced the current welfare system, it would be much smaller. You could argue that it would grow over time, but initially, it would be a smaller amount of money spent.

    If you think UBI is a no-go, what do you suggest we do to shrink government spending instead?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rationalist View Post
    If UBI replaced the current welfare system, it would be much smaller. You could argue that it would grow over time, but initially, it would be a smaller amount of money spent.

    If you think UBI is a no-go, what do you suggest we do to shrink government spending instead?
    Return to the US Constitution.
    Call your state legislators and insist they approve the Article V convention of States to propose amendments.


    I pledge allegiance to the Constitution as written and understood by this nation's founders, and to the Republic it created, an indivisible union of sovereign States, with liberty and justice for all.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MisterVeritis View Post
    Return to the US Constitution.
    I agree with you in spirit, but it seems like neither party is interested in that.

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    Quote Originally Posted by CCitizen View Post
    Many people who oppose Welfare are truly extraordinary. I do not mean this in sarcastic but in genuine sense. Some of those who possess extraordinary willpower have overcome many difficulties in life and achieved success without relying on anyone's help. Many of those people have difficulty understanding people with low will-power. One type of ad-hominem argument is that an opponent possesses a deficiency and thus is not an authority of the subject of debate. In this case, I am going to argue that many of those who have proficiency -- extraordinary skill or willpower may have difficulty understanding the people at the bottom of Society.

    I may be less successful then an average American, but my life is interesting and satisfactory. Unfortunately, there are many people who have much worse luck then myself. Some of them have less willpower and willingness to work then even myself. Many of these people descend to the bottom 5% of Society. Many of these people become prisoners, homeless, and drug addicts.

    Myself being in the Lower Middle Class I can understand these people's bad luck and even weakness. Unfortunately, those who have set very high standards for themselves may have little understanding or compassion for those who fail. Unfortunately, the ideas of Social Darwinism and Survival of the Fittest may appeal to those in the Upper Middle Class.

    The idea of Humanitarianism is that we must work toward Survival of Everyone rather then Survival of the Fittest. All Humans are worth caring for. That includes those who have been in unfortunate circumstances, those who look down upon their luck, and those who have shown extreme weakness. Even those who have fallen into great hardship as a result of their own unethical acts are worth caring for.

    Humanitarian values are widely accepted not only in West Europe but also in Canada. In Canada, even the prisoners serving life for murder are treated humanely. People whose only faults are laziness and lack of will power to stay off drugs are even more worthy of care and humane treatment.
    It is truly a sad tale you weave. Quite untrue but sad none the less. There are people who through no fault of their own they cannot function in society. Those should be helped of course, but they are a very small percentage of those currently on the welfare system. Many currently on welfare are doing so because of their own actions which can and should be addressed with an eye of moving them off welfare. Are you aware a large number of women who become pregnant do not marry until after the child is born in order to have the state pay for their neo-natal care? Women who marry men of substantial means who simply don't want to pay the cost of having his child?

    And your constant whining about even prisoners serving life for murder are treated humanely in other counties is an affront to every murder victim's survivors. We do not treat our prisoners "inhumanely" unless you are defining inhumane as locking them away from society. We do not beat them, brand them, torture them, or otherwise mistreat them so your constant bull$#@! about "humanely treating murderers" is a bit disgusting to say the least.

    You want to save humanity then by all means start a fund and take it upon yourself to assist all of those in need. Jesus tells us to help the widows and orphans. Well, unmarried mothers are not widows and their offspring are not orphans. Require the fathers of these children to support their children instead of fathering more children and leaving them to the state to feed and clothe. Establish a system that trains people for jobs rather than penalize them when they do try to make more money. Put the drug addicted and mentally unstable in institutions to either help them in their recovery or get them off the street for their own benefit. Otherwise, shut up about how stingy we are and how more moral socialist dictatorships are.

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    Quote Originally Posted by CCitizen View Post
    Many people who oppose Welfare are truly extraordinary. I do not mean this in sarcastic but in genuine sense. Some of those who possess extraordinary willpower have overcome many difficulties in life and achieved success without relying on anyone's help. Many of those people have difficulty understanding people with low will-power. One type of ad-hominem argument is that an opponent possesses a deficiency and thus is not an authority of the subject of debate. In this case, I am going to argue that many of those who have proficiency -- extraordinary skill or willpower may have difficulty understanding the people at the bottom of Society.

    I may be less successful then an average American, but my life is interesting and satisfactory. Unfortunately, there are many people who have much worse luck then myself. Some of them have less willpower and willingness to work then even myself. Many of these people descend to the bottom 5% of Society. Many of these people become prisoners, homeless, and drug addicts.

    Myself being in the Lower Middle Class I can understand these people's bad luck and even weakness. Unfortunately, those who have set very high standards for themselves may have little understanding or compassion for those who fail. Unfortunately, the ideas of Social Darwinism and Survival of the Fittest may appeal to those in the Upper Middle Class.

    The idea of Humanitarianism is that we must work toward Survival of Everyone rather then Survival of the Fittest. All Humans are worth caring for. That includes those who have been in unfortunate circumstances, those who look down upon their luck, and those who have shown extreme weakness. Even those who have fallen into great hardship as a result of their own unethical acts are worth caring for.

    Humanitarian values are widely accepted not only in West Europe but also in Canada. In Canada, even the prisoners serving life for murder are treated humanely. People whose only faults are laziness and lack of will power to stay off drugs are even more worthy of care and humane treatment.
    welfare is a needed program but it can be abused a lot of women collect it that make them self baby factory

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