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Thread: I dont totally believe in reincarnation but I might have been ...

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    Quote Originally Posted by RadioGod View Post
    Let's see. Here is John 9:1-2.
    1As he went along, he saw a man blind from birth.2 His disciples asked him, “Rabbi, who sinned, this man or his parents, that he was born blind?”

    The question here is, how is it possible for this man to have sinned before he was born?


    Evidently you don't understand the idea of reincarnation.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Who View Post
    I'm not getting pissy. I'm sorry if anything I've said translates to "pissy". I'm just being honest. Yes, I don't accept Christian dogma as fact for many reasons, one of them is the fact that most of the Bible (New Testament) is a for the most part a postmortem account of the life and times of Jesus Christ as told by a few self-professed contemporaries and with the possible exception of Paul, none of whom could read or write, making most of the scriptures pseudo grafia. Second is the fact that religion and politics were thoroughly integrated during that time and during the ensuing millennia, with the Church/Christianity being used for most blatant political purposes and members of the Church hierarchy embedded in the Roman Empire and post empire monarchical regimes. I have no confidence whatsoever that the New Testament as a written text was not the product of political manipulation. The first "canon”"was the Muratorian Canon, compiled in AD 170. It included all of the New Testament books except Hebrews, James, 1 and 2 Peter, and 3 John. In AD 363, the Council of Laodicea stated that only the Old Testament (along with one book of the Apocrypha) and 26 books of the New Testament (everything but Revelation) were canonical and to be read in the churches. The Council of Hippo (AD 393) and the Council of Carthage (AD 397) also affirmed the same 27 books as authoritative. We have historical writings of the existence of this Canon, but no physical evidence of what it actually contained. Of course there are thousands of copies made by scribes, but there is no way to know what was added and what was omitted, nor do we know how well the original texts were translated.

    We can barely agree on the absolute meaning of certain clauses of the constitution after 232 years without supporting documentation. How much of those originals texts have been subject to misinterpretation or reinterpretation over the millennia?
    Your analysis is exactly true. Just replying with your full quote so people can read it twice.
    I live with a profound happiness that can only be achieved by being hated by Mr.Veritis

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tahuyaman View Post
    Evidently you don't understand the idea of reincarnation.
    Apparently, you don't understand how a man can sin before being born, unless he lived before. Let me guess.... You are one of those Christians who think Ouija boards and seances are the work of the devil, but stand around in a prayer circle holding hands, invoking a bloody Jesus Christ to save you from your ignorance and shortcomings?
    I live with a profound happiness that can only be achieved by being hated by Mr.Veritis

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    Quote Originally Posted by RadioGod View Post
    I recently re-read some of the New Testament, to see it with fresh eyes again after another thread was posted. It has me honestly wondering whether or not the citations of blind, or even the dead, were not allegorical. I honestly just don't know.

    Interestingly, in line with this thread about reincarnation, there is a lot of evidence about Jesus's missing years. The argument mostly considers that Joseph of Arimathea was actually Jesus's uncle, and was a trader involved in shipping and caravans. The big caravan route for trade in the day was the silk road, stretching from Europe and the Middle East to China and Southeast Asia, depending on the offshoot roads.

    In India and Tibet, there are stories of Saint Issa, a remarkable figure who did do miracles exactly mirroring Jesus's, and at the same time as Jesus was not recorded as living in Palestine. It is postulated that Jesus went there to study, traveling the silk road with his uncle's trading caravans. He would have been exposed daily to Brahmanism, Hinduism, and 500 year old Buddhism at that time. Reincarnation would have factored into Jesus's daily life significantly if this is true. So much so, I find it strange that no real concrete statement about reincarnation is in the bible. I can only assume, for now, that Jesus considered it a non-issue, or at least not concerning enough for a teaching about it.

    In a like manner, even though in Buddhism most followers take it on faith that reincarnation is real, every single person ever considered a Zen master in the direct line of transmission from the Buddha himself, has never taught that reincarnation is real. Their answers to the questions of reincarnation have always held that it is missing the point. They taught that the direct perception of reality was the point, and this direct experience would put an end to ignorance. Ignorance of a separate existence, ignorance of permanence, and thus, ignorance of a permanent self.

    Looking at Jesus's words themselves, he taught the same exact thing. When he said that he is in his Father, and his Father is in him, he purposefully eschewed a separated self identity and a separate existence. The scholars at that time were angry at Jesus for claiming to be God, or the son of God. That is, in fact, the main charge that led to his crucifixion. But based on Jesus's words and repeated attempts to explain this very thing, I can only conclude the scholars were missing the mark. Maybe Jesus was trying to say, not that he and God were 1, but that they were not 2. This can be hard to grapple with in our minds, because if something is not 2 separate things, our reasoning drives us to the conclusion they must be the same thing, like, indivisibly.

    But if we reflect on the idea of no separate self identity for anyone or anything, that does indeed answer the question of reincarnation. For those caught in an idea of a separated self, reincarnation is real. For those who's ignorance about a separated existence has been squashed by the realization of no separate self, reincarnation is not possible, because there is no real self.

    I think this is why there is no direct teaching by Jesus on reincarnation, it was a moot point, easily resolved but understanding his teachings.
    It is my belief that it is no coincidence that at the heart of all the major religions and even many of the less well known religions there is the concept that we are all connected to one another, to the planet and to what the native people call the great spirit. Unfortunately to a great extent I think that the forest has been lost in the trees - dogma, cultural overlay, ego and corruption.

    I like your conclusions about the nature of Christ - it's actually more similar to earlier Christian concepts of Christ which were rejected by the Church. Why? I think because the notion that anything remotely divine about our existence would have diminished the power of the Church.
    In quoting my post, you affirm and agree that you have not been goaded, provoked, emotionally manipulated or otherwise coerced into responding.



    "The difference between what we do and what we are capable of doing would suffice to solve most of the world’s problems.”
    Mahatma Gandhi

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mister D View Post


    What?


    I'm sorry but that's not what I asked for...whatever that was. I asked you to show me the doctrine you referred to. The blind man in John 9 is interpreted by the Church as having been born blind so God could test him?



    Googling again? lol Stop.
    Not googling other than to copy the text of John 9:1–5. However, please show where the Church indicates that people are born with infirmities because of sin, when John 9:1–5 specifically indicates otherwise. You can't be arguing that the vicissitudes of birth defects have nothing to do with God, so therefore they are born that way for a reason. God's plan. Please explain.
    In quoting my post, you affirm and agree that you have not been goaded, provoked, emotionally manipulated or otherwise coerced into responding.



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    Quote Originally Posted by RadioGod View Post
    Apparently, you don't understand how a man can sin before being born, unless he lived before. Let me guess.... You are one of those Christians who think Ouija boards and seances are the work of the devil, but stand around in a prayer circle holding hands, invoking a bloody Jesus Christ to save you from your ignorance and shortcomings?
    You're an idiot. Really.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Who View Post
    Not so very far apart. It depends on when you believe that judgment day occurs.

    The reason for Nicaea was really primarily political because Emperor, Constantine the Great, who had recently converted to Christianity, needed a unified faith as the glue to hold together the empire without periodic outbreaks of religious persecutions even within the dominant faith.

    The councils of Rome (AD 382) Hippo (AD 393) and Carthage (AD 397) generally accepted the canonical status of the Apocrypha primarily because of the influence of Saint Augustine, however the first official council of the Roman Catholic Church to ratify these books as authoritative Scripture was at the Council of Trent in 1546-1563. The church went back and forth regarding the Apocrypha. They were variously rejected by Roman Catholic scholars as scripture over the centuries although considered important from a historical perspective.

    It is arguable that the 'concept of reincarnation' was rejected during the Council of Constantinople in AD 553 where Origenism, which included belief in the pre-existence of the soul was discounted, although it does not seem that this was considered to be the dogma of transmigration. The Church held that the soul is created only at the moment of birth. (see also Arianism).

    A number of the Apocryphal texts reference the concept of reincarnation. At that the time concepts of resurrection and reincarnation were not necessarily separate.
    Reincarnation is very different from resurrection. The typical belief in reincarnation is that your soul is eternal and will go through several lives in an effort to prefect yourself and become closer to god. You are not consciously aware of your past lives. In a rough nut shell.

    Resurrection is a dead person coming back to life. As the same person, with the same memories, etc.
    ΜOΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ


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    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Who View Post
    Not googling other than to copy the text of John 9:1–5. However, please show where the Church indicates that people are born with infirmities because of sin, when John 9:1–5 specifically indicates otherwise. You can't be arguing that the vicissitudes of birth defects have nothing to do with God, so therefore they are born that way for a reason. God's plan. Please explain.
    The Church doesn't. The Jews did as per Mosaic Law (e.g. Exodus 20:5). I'm not arguing anything but the meaning of the passage cited. Please read my posts before you respond. Thanks.

    If you can't support your claims don't bristle. Just say so. Thanks, again.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tahuyaman View Post
    You're an idiot. Really.
    Which is why I don't waste any time on him. Some people are worth proving wrong. He's not one of them.
    Whoever criticizes capitalism, while approving immigration, whose working class is its first victim, had better shut up. Whoever criticizes immigration, while remaining silent about capitalism, should do the same.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Who View Post
    I'm not getting pissy. I'm sorry if anything I've said translates to "pissy". I'm just being honest. Yes, I don't accept Christian dogma as fact for many reasons, one of them is the fact that most of the Bible (New Testament) is a for the most part a postmortem account of the life and times of Jesus Christ as told by a few self-professed contemporaries and with the possible exception of Paul, none of whom could read or write, making most of the scriptures pseudo grafia. Second is the fact that religion and politics were thoroughly integrated during that time and during the ensuing millennia, with the Church/Christianity being used for most blatant political purposes and members of the Church hierarchy embedded in the Roman Empire and post empire monarchical regimes. I have no confidence whatsoever that the New Testament as a written text was not the product of political manipulation. The first "canon”"was the Muratorian Canon, compiled in AD 170. It included all of the New Testament books except Hebrews, James, 1 and 2 Peter, and 3 John. In AD 363, the Council of Laodicea stated that only the Old Testament (along with one book of the Apocrypha) and 26 books of the New Testament (everything but Revelation) were canonical and to be read in the churches. The Council of Hippo (AD 393) and the Council of Carthage (AD 397) also affirmed the same 27 books as authoritative. We have historical writings of the existence of this Canon, but no physical evidence of what it actually contained. Of course there are thousands of copies made by scribes, but there is no way to know what was added and what was omitted, nor do we know how well the original texts were translated.

    We can barely agree on the absolute meaning of certain clauses of the constitution after 232 years without supporting documentation. How much of those originals texts have been subject to misinterpretation or reinterpretation over the millennia?
    That's nice. You have this habit of quoting a member and responding to something or someone else. You don't accept Christian dogma? OK shrug. lol

    Reincarnation is not a Christian concept and never was. As long as we're clear on that I guess we're done. As for your superficial spirituality I won't bother to follow up. Apparently, it means about as much to you as it does to me. Hey, sorry if that translates to "pissy". I'm just being honest.
    Whoever criticizes capitalism, while approving immigration, whose working class is its first victim, had better shut up. Whoever criticizes immigration, while remaining silent about capitalism, should do the same.


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