Members banned from this thread: Ethereal


User Tag List

+ Reply to Thread
Page 37 of 56 FirstFirst ... 2733343536373839404147 ... LastLast
Results 361 to 370 of 552

Thread: Survey: Christianity declining rapidly in US -

  1. #361
    Points: 61,049, Level: 60
    Level completed: 35%, Points required for next Level: 1,301
    Overall activity: 18.0%
    Achievements:
    Tagger First ClassSocialVeteran50000 Experience Points
    pjohns's Avatar Senior Member
    Karma
    14531
    Join Date
    May 2012
    Location
    Tennessee
    Posts
    7,906
    Points
    61,049
    Level
    60
    Thanks Given
    19,461
    Thanked 4,225x in 2,708 Posts
    Mentioned
    42 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Who View Post
    It's late so I will simplify Freud's argument. He believed that the origin of religion is rooted in man's primitive past (his childhood stage) when the world in which he lived was a very frightening and unpredictable place in which he existed in a pretty constant state of fear of his environment and his fellow humans. Out of this rather stressful situation was eventually borne the notion of a divine idealized father who is both a protector of the virtuous and one who provides consolation and compensation for the burdens of life, providence and immortality in exchange for complete loyalty, discipline and adoration. [Bold added]
    One problem here--and it is a serious one--is the tacit belief that being "virtuous" is all that is required in order to be pleasing to the deity.

    In Christianity--and I use this, since America is a majority-Christian nation--virtue is necessary, but not sufficient.

    A belief in Jesus, as the promised Messiah--and as God--is also necessary.

    (True, I have long struggled with the question of how it is just to punish those who have never heard of Him--despite the best efforts of missionaries. And I really have no good answer here.)

  2. #362
    Original Ranter
    Points: 297,687, Level: 100
    Level completed: 0%, Points required for next Level: 0
    Overall activity: 42.0%
    Achievements:
    SocialRecommendation Second ClassOverdrive50000 Experience PointsVeteran
    Mister D's Avatar Senior Member
    Karma
    416525
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Posts
    117,863
    Points
    297,687
    Level
    100
    Thanks Given
    25,297
    Thanked 53,470x in 36,445 Posts
    Mentioned
    1102 Post(s)
    Tagged
    1 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by Standing Wolf View Post
    If everyone is quite through hyperventilating about the word "superstition"...I would simply like to reiterate the point that religiosity, or the lack thereof, is no true measure of anyone's patriotism, citizenship, mental health, OR their willingness to sacrifice their time, money and effort to help others. While much of the good work being done in the world for people in need is at the hands of various religious organizations - particularly the Catholics, Lutherans and the various "peace" churches - much is done by individuals and groups with no religious affiliation or mission at all. You don't have to be motivated by a belief in the supernatural to want to do good for other human beings, for animals or for the environment - to be a good neighbor, a good citizen or just a good and righteous person.



    Most alleged "attacks" on religious liberty are either cases where an individual or group is seeking to be treated preferentially because of their professed religious faith, or are claiming that they ought to be exempt from following the rules that others in society must follow because of it. Every case is different, and it's impossible to state categorically that the one claiming to have been "attacked" is always justified or always in the wrong.

    "Secular Leftist" groups like the ACLU are frequently criticized and branded as being part of the "anti-religious" movement, but the truth is somewhat different.

    https://www.aclu.org/aclu-defense-re...and-expression

    Some reading the above cited page will remark on the relatively high number of religious Muslims with whom the ACLU has sided, and that's fair; it's also fair to consider why that is. Religious minorities in the U.S. have always suffered from a disproportionately higher number of impediments to the practice of their beliefs - those consistent, of course, with U.S. law - and to their simply exercising their civil rights. A fair reading of the list of cases with which the organization has become involved in recent years will also show a great number of instances where it was a Christian person or group whose rights were at issue, and the ACLU took their side.
    No one "hyperventilated" about anything. You said something obnoxious and were taken to task. That's not the first time it has happened and it won't be the last. Wise up, old man.
    Whoever criticizes capitalism, while approving immigration, whose working class is its first victim, had better shut up. Whoever criticizes immigration, while remaining silent about capitalism, should do the same.


    ~Alain de Benoist


  3. The Following User Says Thank You to Mister D For This Useful Post:

    pjohns (10-22-2019)

  4. #363
    Points: 665,240, Level: 100
    Level completed: 0%, Points required for next Level: 0
    Overall activity: 90.0%
    Achievements:
    SocialRecommendation Second ClassYour first GroupOverdrive50000 Experience PointsTagger First ClassVeteran
    Awards:
    Discussion Ender
    Chris's Avatar Senior Member
    Karma
    433309
    Join Date
    Feb 2012
    Posts
    197,544
    Points
    665,240
    Level
    100
    Thanks Given
    31,981
    Thanked 80,898x in 54,716 Posts
    Mentioned
    2011 Post(s)
    Tagged
    2 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by Mister D View Post
    No one "hyperventilated" about anything. You said something obnoxious and were taken to task. That's not the first time it has happened and it won't be the last. Wise up, old man.
    Right, but at least he's walked back from his original claim.
    Tradition is not the worship of ashes, but the preservation of fire. ― Gustav Mahler

  5. #364
    Points: 431,936, Level: 100
    Level completed: 0%, Points required for next Level: 0
    Overall activity: 100.0%
    Achievements:
    50000 Experience PointsVeteranOverdriveSocial
    Awards:
    Frequent Poster
    Tahuyaman's Avatar Senior Member
    Karma
    307947
    Join Date
    Dec 2014
    Location
    Bremerton, Washington
    Posts
    183,353
    Points
    431,936
    Level
    100
    Thanks Given
    20,172
    Thanked 76,962x in 55,590 Posts
    Mentioned
    700 Post(s)
    Tagged
    1 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by Chris View Post
    I don't think God is. I think that was Leibniz's point. But you're not interested in discussing that and I'm not interested in discussing metaphysics.
    I had a friend who was deeply involved in Transcendental Meditation (TM) and metaphysics many years ago. He even went to Maharishi U for a brief period of time. He was all in for several years.

    He said his goal was to achieve the same level of consciousness as Jesus Christ.

  6. #365
    Points: 174,762, Level: 99
    Level completed: 28%, Points required for next Level: 2,888
    Overall activity: 23.0%
    Achievements:
    SocialVeteranTagger First Class50000 Experience Points
    Dr. Who's Avatar Advisor
    Karma
    870666
    Join Date
    Jan 2013
    Location
    Gallifrey
    Posts
    69,089
    Points
    174,762
    Level
    99
    Thanks Given
    12,826
    Thanked 12,929x in 8,807 Posts
    Mentioned
    206 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by pjohns View Post
    The central problem with this statement is that it places "reason" in stark juxtaposition to "faith." And that is entirely...well, unreasonable to me.

    Let me put it this way:

    There are only two means through which we gain knowledge: the rational and the empirical.

    The rational is that which comes through reason.

    The empirical is that which comes through experience or observation.

    If I knew a bit about auto mechanics, I could explain rationally just why it is that I can turn the key in the ignition, and my car will start.

    But I do not.

    I do know, however--from sheer experience--that this is the case.

    So I have faith that when I turn the key in the ignition, the car will start.

    But it is not based merely upon "the desire to believe in something that cannot be proven [and] can legitimately be called superstition."

    Does that make sense to you?
    I fully agree that reason and faith in a religious context are essentially opposites. However, I entered this discussion based on a disagreement with the semantics of the words 'superstition or superstitious'. Now, it shouldn't surprise you that the word faith has different meanings depending on context. Your having 'faith that when I turn the key in the ignition, the car will start' actually involves a different meaning of the word faith i.e. meaning trust. In a religious context the word faith means having spiritual conviction. In terms of having faith that your car will start, that faith (trust) is based on your experience that when you put gas in the car, knowing the battery is charged and there are no mechanical issues that you are aware of, chances are that it will start. If it doesn't, you have the vehicle serviced. Having spiritual conviction on the other hand, has no dependencies and is a matter of choice. Either you choose to believe in the existence of a deity or you do not. There really isn't a middle ground nor is there any way to prove something that has no physical properties and cannot even be postulated through mathematical formulas.

    I understand that the faithful bristle at the use of the word superstition relative to religious belief but let's face it, they also comprise a majority of the population and thus tend to control the popular usage of the word. However, for the atheist, belief in luck, charms, demons, devils or magic versus a deity, is a distinction without a difference, and without that built-in bias, the definition of superstition as "belief, half-belief, or practice for which there appears to be no rational substance" would also comprise belief in a deity or deities, notwithstanding the fact that it is somewhat insensitive to the sensibilities of those with religious convictions to use it that way.
    In quoting my post, you affirm and agree that you have not been goaded, provoked, emotionally manipulated or otherwise coerced into responding.



    "The difference between what we do and what we are capable of doing would suffice to solve most of the world’s problems.”
    Mahatma Gandhi

  7. #366
    Points: 174,762, Level: 99
    Level completed: 28%, Points required for next Level: 2,888
    Overall activity: 23.0%
    Achievements:
    SocialVeteranTagger First Class50000 Experience Points
    Dr. Who's Avatar Advisor
    Karma
    870666
    Join Date
    Jan 2013
    Location
    Gallifrey
    Posts
    69,089
    Points
    174,762
    Level
    99
    Thanks Given
    12,826
    Thanked 12,929x in 8,807 Posts
    Mentioned
    206 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by pjohns View Post
    One problem here--and it is a serious one--is the tacit belief that being "virtuous" is all that is required in order to be pleasing to the deity.

    In Christianity--and I use this, since America is a majority-Christian nation--virtue is necessary, but not sufficient.

    A belief in Jesus, as the promised Messiah--and as God--is also necessary.

    (True, I have long struggled with the question of how it is just to punish those who have never heard of Him--despite the best efforts of missionaries. And I really have no good answer here.)
    I should have included the word piety.
    In quoting my post, you affirm and agree that you have not been goaded, provoked, emotionally manipulated or otherwise coerced into responding.



    "The difference between what we do and what we are capable of doing would suffice to solve most of the world’s problems.”
    Mahatma Gandhi

  8. #367
    Points: 665,240, Level: 100
    Level completed: 0%, Points required for next Level: 0
    Overall activity: 90.0%
    Achievements:
    SocialRecommendation Second ClassYour first GroupOverdrive50000 Experience PointsTagger First ClassVeteran
    Awards:
    Discussion Ender
    Chris's Avatar Senior Member
    Karma
    433309
    Join Date
    Feb 2012
    Posts
    197,544
    Points
    665,240
    Level
    100
    Thanks Given
    31,981
    Thanked 80,898x in 54,716 Posts
    Mentioned
    2011 Post(s)
    Tagged
    2 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Who View Post
    I fully agree that reason and faith in a religious context are essentially opposites. However, I entered this discussion based on a disagreement with the semantics of the words 'superstition or superstitious'. Now, it shouldn't surprise you that the word faith has different meanings depending on context. Your having 'faith that when I turn the key in the ignition, the car will start' actually involves a different meaning of the word faith i.e. meaning trust. In a religious context the word faith means having spiritual conviction. In terms of having faith that your car will start, that faith (trust) is based on your experience that when you put gas in the car, knowing the battery is charged and there are no mechanical issues that you are aware of, chances are that it will start. If it doesn't, you have the vehicle serviced. Having spiritual conviction on the other hand, has no dependencies and is a matter of choice. Either you choose to believe in the existence of a deity or you do not. There really isn't a middle ground nor is there any way to prove something that has no physical properties and cannot even be postulated through mathematical formulas.

    I understand that the faithful bristle at the use of the word superstition relative to religious belief but let's face it, they also comprise a majority of the population and thus tend to control the popular usage of the word. However, for the atheist, belief in luck, charms, demons, devils or magic versus a deity, is a distinction without a difference, and without that built-in bias, the definition of superstition as "belief, half-belief, or practice for which there appears to be no rational substance" would also comprise belief in a deity or deities, notwithstanding the fact that it is somewhat insensitive to the sensibilities of those with religious convictions to use it that way.

    However, for the atheist, belief in luck, charms, demons, devils or magic versus a deity, is a distinction without a difference, and without that built-in bias, the definition of superstition as "belief, half-belief, or practice for which there appears to be no rational substance" would also comprise belief in a deity or deities, notwithstanding the fact that it is somewhat insensitive to the sensibilities of those with religious convictions to use it that way.
    Perhaps as you define the word 'atheism.' For I, an atheist, do not conflate but definitely distinguish with a difference between this-worldly (luck, charms, demons, devils or magic--add black cats and ladders and such) and other-worldly (Judeo-Christian God).
    Tradition is not the worship of ashes, but the preservation of fire. ― Gustav Mahler

  9. The Following User Says Thank You to Chris For This Useful Post:

    Peter1469 (10-22-2019)

  10. #368
    Points: 174,762, Level: 99
    Level completed: 28%, Points required for next Level: 2,888
    Overall activity: 23.0%
    Achievements:
    SocialVeteranTagger First Class50000 Experience Points
    Dr. Who's Avatar Advisor
    Karma
    870666
    Join Date
    Jan 2013
    Location
    Gallifrey
    Posts
    69,089
    Points
    174,762
    Level
    99
    Thanks Given
    12,826
    Thanked 12,929x in 8,807 Posts
    Mentioned
    206 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by pjohns View Post
    The word that I have most frequently heard, in this context, is "pagans."

    Personally, I prefer to refrain from any such name-calling. (As an example: Although I like the majority of the policies of President Trump, I severely dislike his tendency toward name-calling.)
    I think heathen is more inclusive as the term pagan describes a person holding religious beliefs other than those of the main world religions but does not include atheists. Still, even pagan has a pejorative inference - it's rather condescending, yet people of faith use the term with no regard for the sensibilities of those who hold those beliefs.
    In quoting my post, you affirm and agree that you have not been goaded, provoked, emotionally manipulated or otherwise coerced into responding.



    "The difference between what we do and what we are capable of doing would suffice to solve most of the world’s problems.”
    Mahatma Gandhi

  11. #369
    Points: 174,762, Level: 99
    Level completed: 28%, Points required for next Level: 2,888
    Overall activity: 23.0%
    Achievements:
    SocialVeteranTagger First Class50000 Experience Points
    Dr. Who's Avatar Advisor
    Karma
    870666
    Join Date
    Jan 2013
    Location
    Gallifrey
    Posts
    69,089
    Points
    174,762
    Level
    99
    Thanks Given
    12,826
    Thanked 12,929x in 8,807 Posts
    Mentioned
    206 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by pjohns View Post
    To argue that one "can find no rational basis for anyone to believe in God" is to state an opinion.

    To refer to theism, on the other hand, as a mere "superstition" is to insult the intelligence of all theists.

    So there really is a significant difference here.
    I would argue that calling belief in a deity a superstition is also an opinion.
    In quoting my post, you affirm and agree that you have not been goaded, provoked, emotionally manipulated or otherwise coerced into responding.



    "The difference between what we do and what we are capable of doing would suffice to solve most of the world’s problems.”
    Mahatma Gandhi

  12. #370
    Points: 174,762, Level: 99
    Level completed: 28%, Points required for next Level: 2,888
    Overall activity: 23.0%
    Achievements:
    SocialVeteranTagger First Class50000 Experience Points
    Dr. Who's Avatar Advisor
    Karma
    870666
    Join Date
    Jan 2013
    Location
    Gallifrey
    Posts
    69,089
    Points
    174,762
    Level
    99
    Thanks Given
    12,826
    Thanked 12,929x in 8,807 Posts
    Mentioned
    206 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by Chris View Post
    Perhaps as you define the word 'atheism.' For I, an atheist, do not conflate but definitely distinguish with a difference between this-worldly (luck, charms, demons, devils or magic--add black cats and ladders and such) and other-worldly (Judeo-Christian God).
    Why would belief in the Judeo-Christian deity be any more or less reasonable than any other deist beliefs or any of the syncretic religions like Voodoo or the so called pagan faiths?
    In quoting my post, you affirm and agree that you have not been goaded, provoked, emotionally manipulated or otherwise coerced into responding.



    "The difference between what we do and what we are capable of doing would suffice to solve most of the world’s problems.”
    Mahatma Gandhi

+ Reply to Thread

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts