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Thread: A Better Guide than Reason—Or Not?

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    A Better Guide than Reason—Or Not?

    A Better Guide than Reason—Or Not? is a review of Mark Mitchell’s new book, . The review is somewhat negative and the book may well have its shortcomings but it theme and point are good for what ails the modern world.

    Mark Mitchell’s effort to reclaim traditionalism in the defense of freedom is admirable.

    His emphasis aligns him with such estimable writers as Edmund Burke and Russell Kirk, and, in our own day, with Rod Dreher, Patrick Deneen, and others who have both unsettled conservatives yet revived probing conversations. Though the second half of The Limits of Liberalism, which could be said to be another book in itself, is about freedom, the first half aims to show the epistemic role of tradition—that one comes to know reality through the inherited order, the particular legacy into which all are born. “Our situation today,” writes Mitchell, “is best conceived as a conflict between those who advocate some version of liberal cosmopolitanism (along with its reactionary offspring, identity politics) and those who instead uphold the idea of tradition along with the inherent limits—social, natural, and metaphysical—that such a position entails.”

    Professor Mitchell has given himself a formidable assignment—perhaps too formidable. Not only does he faithfully work through the thoughts of three tough thinkers—Oakeshott, MacIntyre, and Polanyi—but he also contrasts their teachings with dominant strains of classical liberalism. In addition, toward the end of his book, he meditates upon Augustine’s Confessions and De Magistro and T. S. Eliot’s Four Quartets, correctives to liberalism in a different key. He concludes that “Liberalism is both incoherent and unstable. The liberal cosmopolitan dream is an illusion.” Like Deneen, he finds his enemy in individualism, which militates against the very freedom it would secure. Without Tocquevillian associations and corporate relationships, liberalism shrinks and isolates the human person. Yet, at the end of the book, the question still persists: is everything wrong due to liberalism?

    No doubt Mitchell’s concerns are shared by true lovers of liberty. His worries echo those of the Southern Agrarians in the 1930’s (I’ll Take My Stand), who offered compelling images of and arguments for the small, the known, and the particular versus the large, the mass-minded, and the abstract. Unlike them, however, he writes from outside any distinct tradition himself, at times making tradition as abstract as a principle. Despite the weight Professor Mitchell places on “the particular” as the way to knowledge and right behavior, his assertions remain skeletal, deficient in convincing examples from history or from human experience to embody them. This is a book that is too often deprived of context, one lacking in images laden with “rich and contingent materiality” (the Agrarian John Crowe Ransom’s phrase).

    As I see it, the fundamental weakness of the book lies in Mitchell’s point of departure: the claim that one can only know through received opinion, through the ancestors, or through what political philosophers call convention. In his emphasis on how one knows, he neglects the possibility of knowing a thing in itself without cultural mediation. In emphasizing that man is born into a defining prescriptive order, Mitchell sidelines man as the creature who questions and wonders. Professor Mitchell’s work is most detailed in explaining why he appreciates the contributions of Michael Oakeshott, Alasdair MacIntyre, and Michael Polanyi, who, in their respective ways, show that one can know reality through tradition and culture. The claims made, however, downplay the force of human reason to probe the assumptions into which one is born. Their emphasis on one’s native language, for instance, sets boundaries on perception to an inordinate extent. In focusing on how human beings come to know, what is known is compromised.

    A second major problem that the book inadequately addresses is the feasibility of individual solutions to a general cultural problem....
    Tradition is not the worship of ashes, but the preservation of fire. ― Gustav Mahler

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    Reason seems fine from my perspective. I do see some weaknesses in individualism, however.

    The primary weakness I've noticed is that a lot of individualists and libertarians seem to downplay the significance of demographics. In any representative government, demographics determine policy and, ultimately, culture.

    The "marketplace of ideas" is not a mechanism where the most logical ideas succeed. Oftentimes, it simply is a matter of the loudest and most popular ideas succeeding.

    Naturally, this makes immigration policy worth considering as a factor to influence the evolution of the values of society.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rationalist View Post
    Reason seems fine from my perspective. I do see some weaknesses in individualism, however.

    The primary weakness I've noticed is that a lot of individualists and libertarians seem to downplay the significance of demographics. In any representative government, demographics determine policy and, ultimately, culture.

    The "marketplace of ideas" is not a mechanism where the most logical ideas succeed. Oftentimes, it simply is a matter of the loudest and most popular ideas succeeding.

    Naturally, this makes immigration policy worth considering as a factor to influence the evolution of the values of society.

    The "marketplace of ideas" is not a mechanism where the most logical ideas succeed. Oftentimes, it simply is a matter of the loudest and most popular ideas succeeding.
    Over time, however, the better, truer ideas prevail. The marketplace is more scientific than it is political in that while fads may win immediate approval what works prevails in the long run. I follow Curt Doolittle and his Propertarianism on this, from whom I will add the the West is the best inasmuch as it has figured out how to create great commons.
    Tradition is not the worship of ashes, but the preservation of fire. ― Gustav Mahler

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    Quote Originally Posted by Chris View Post
    Over time, however, the better, truer ideas prevail. The marketplace is more scientific than it is political in that while fads may win immediate approval what works prevails in the long run. I follow Curt Doolittle and his Propertarianism on this.
    I think that depends on the culture involved. Good examples of where I see it fail time and time again are in many Latin American countries. Many of them have had terrible experiences with socialism, and yet, they keep coming back to that system.

    Also, what ideas succeed are often a matter of the quality of intellect among a population. Socialism seems to be most popular in cultures where the average person is poorly educated and has a low work ethic. Capitalism is more popular among highly ambitious populations and where the labor force is more skilled.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rationalist View Post
    I think that depends on the culture involved. Good examples of where I see it fail time and time again are in many Latin American countries. Many of them have had terrible experiences with socialism, and yet, they keep coming back to that system.

    Also, what ideas succeed are often a matter of the quality of intellect among a population. Socialism seems to be most popular in cultures where the average person is poorly educated and has a low work ethic. Capitalism is more popular among highly ambitious populations and where the labor force is more skilled.

    Socialism is a reason social order. Naturally, it fails. Man is not capable of design let alone managing society. And, as an individualist ideology--Marx's aim was to perfect society in the individual, it fails because it aims to undo all that has emerged as tradition in society.
    Tradition is not the worship of ashes, but the preservation of fire. ― Gustav Mahler

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    Quote Originally Posted by Chris View Post
    Socialism is a reason social order. Naturally, it fails. Man is not capable of design let alone managing society. And, as an individualist ideology--Marx's aim was to perfect society in the individual, it fails because it aims to undo all that has emerged as tradition in society.
    There's truth to that, but I would consider Marx far more of a collectivist. His ideal individual was little more than a cog in a wheel.

    Marx was also an anarchist, but he ironically advocated for what amounted to a new collective - the proletariat.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rationalist View Post
    There's truth to that, but I would consider Marx far more of a collectivist. His ideal individual was little more than a cog in a wheel.

    Marx was also an anarchist, but he ironically advocated for what amounted to a new collective - the proletariat.
    Most everyone who came out of the Enlightenment was an individualist who turned against the earlier corporate collective.

    Marx associated with anarchists but broke with the continental libertarians for an authoritarian, or, better, totalitarian bent with the dictatorship of the proletariat, which was to lead to the promised Land of communism.

    This is the problem with reason, people imagining what can never be in reality because they sent who we are.
    Tradition is not the worship of ashes, but the preservation of fire. ― Gustav Mahler

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    Quote Originally Posted by Chris View Post
    Most everyone who came out of the Enlightenment was an individualist who turned against the earlier corporate collective.

    Marx associated with anarchists but broke with the continental libertarians for an authoritarian, or, better, totalitarian bent with the dictatorship of the proletariat, which was to lead to the promised Land of communism.

    This is the problem with reason, people imagining what can never be in reality because they sent who we are.
    Or rather, Marxism is a good demonstration of what happens when you apply reason to a deeply flawed premise. It's kind of like progressivism.

    Reason itself doesn't strike me as a problem so much as that people often take an ideology and extrapolate too far with it using reason alone.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rationalist View Post
    Or rather, Marxism is a good demonstration of what happens when you apply reason to a deeply flawed premise. It's kind of like progressivism.

    Reason itself doesn't strike me as a problem so much as that people often take an ideology and extrapolate too far with it using reason alone.
    Reason alone divorces from who we are as social beings. Reasoning, political beings as Aristotle put it. Reasoning on flawed premises is what I see all around me. On this forum, the latest thread on Christianity and God is witness to that.

    The US Constitution is a good example of a reasonable system built on a knowledge of what had been tried and worked or failed in the past, but looking at where it has led, an all-too-powerful central government, leads me to say it is flawed as well.
    Tradition is not the worship of ashes, but the preservation of fire. ― Gustav Mahler

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    Quote Originally Posted by Chris View Post
    Reason alone divorces from who we are as social beings. Reasoning, political beings as Aristotle put it. Reasoning on flawed premises is what I see all around me. On this forum, the latest thread on Christianity and God is witness to that.

    The US Constitution is a good example of a reasonable system built on a knowledge of what had been tried and worked or failed in the past, but looking at where it has led, an all-too-powerful central government, leads me to say it is flawed as well.
    I would argue our path to big government has less to do with the Constitution and more to do with groupthink.

    There's a tendency for people to demand more government whenever a crisis occurs. The Great Depression was one of the biggest crises we've ever faced as a society, but our response to it was a direct result of the public clamoring for government intervention and politicians in power that were more than happy to expand their influence in the process.

    You could say flawed reasoning was involved in that too, but a hunger for power was even more integral.

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