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Thread: Blaming Religious Right for Christian Decline

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mister D View Post
    There's a potential for bias but you when make that an argument for dismissing the claims presented in the OP it is in fact ad hominem.
    I didn't dismiss the claims. I addressed them...then I mentioned the source and the potential for bias.

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    The demographic trends the OP reports are supported by this analysis, The Religious Left Has a Numbers Problem:

    ...One of the major challenges faced by any politician interested in a religious left movement is the indisputable fact that there are fewer Americans today who are both highly religious and liberal than there are Americans who are both highly religious and conservative.

    This conclusion is based on my analysis of 2018 Gallup data among non-Hispanic whites. I will return to the challenge of reaching black Americans below. Blacks are the most religious of any major racial or ethnic group in the country and strongly oriented to voting Democratic, with exit poll data showing that about nine in 10 voted for Hillary Clinton in 2016.

    I estimate that about 20% of non-Hispanic white Americans are both conservative and highly religious (defined as those who attend religious services weekly or almost every week and for whom religion is important in their daily life) and thus are, broadly speaking, the "religious right." By contrast, only 4% of non-Hispanic white Americans are both liberal and highly religious, or the group that would constitute the "religious left." More broadly, 52% of white conservatives are highly religious, compared with only 16% of white liberals.

    In short, the potential for political activation of highly religious white voters -- most importantly in reference to the looming 2020 presidential election -- appears significantly higher on the right side of the ideological spectrum than on the left.

    What about the influence of the religious left within the Democratic Party? Here again, the potential impact of religion for candidates seeking their party's nomination appears lower than is the case in the Republican Party. My estimate is that about 23% of white Democrats are highly religious. The majority of these highly religious white Democrats are ideologically moderate and conservative, which wouldn't fit the definition of a classic "religious left." (Only 9% of white Democrats are highly religious and liberal -- the description, it appears to me, that would best fit Buttigieg.) This suggests that Democratic candidates seeking to activate support among highly religious white members of their party would need to move more to the center of the ideological spectrum.

    By contrast, 51% of white Republicans are highly religious, and 40% are highly religious and conservative, the analog to the religious right....
    The author, Frank Newport, Ph.D., is a Gallup senior scientist. I don't know his religious affiliation. :P
    Tradition is not the worship of ashes, but the preservation of fire. ― Gustav Mahler

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    Quote Originally Posted by Chris View Post
    Oh, so now I'm obtuse. You've got nothing. I did address hat your posted and pointed out it was illogical and asked for a rational response. If you have nothing more, then go find another thread.
    You actually didn't address anything I said in this post.

    Quote Originally Posted by Common Sense View Post
    I think there's certainly an interesting argument to be made that the liberalization of Christian institutions has led to declining congregations, but I don't think it is a primary cause. I think it's an attempt to make Christianity more appealing to a broader audience. It's more of a reaction to declining congregations rather than a cause.

    I think the decline has been caused by a variety of factors. There's a correlation between higher education and a lack of formal religion. The answers science provides has also rendered some religious beliefs innacurate. Cultural dynamics have changed and churches being the centre of community has virtually disappeared in many areas.

    Then there is also the perceived moral bankruptcy of many outspoken religious leaders. Jerry Falwell, Jim Baker, Jimmy Swaggart and the dozens of other Christian leaders scandals have been a black eye on the Religious right. Turning a blind eye to Trumps indiscretions doesn't help either.

    Again, add to that the outspoken nature of Christian Right leaders and their opposition to cultural changes, Catholic sex scandals and you see a growing negative view of Christianity.
    You skipped over it and only addressed my comment on the source.

    I've been polite and I've engaged in discussing the topic. I simply pointed out the source and you've fixated on that rather than other arguments.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Common Sense View Post
    I didn't dismiss the claims. I addressed them...then I mentioned the source and the potential for bias.
    The OP's primary claim is that there is little evidence that political stances and media attention have an appreciable effect on either the growth or decline of congregations. You didn't address this. You simply gave your own opinion (which is fine, BTW) on this decline. Your comments seem more like a response to Peter than to the OP. The OP makes an interesting point about the growth of non-white evangelicalism (one confirmed by glancing at the audience of someone like Joel Osteen, for example).
    Whoever criticizes capitalism, while approving immigration, whose working class is its first victim, had better shut up. Whoever criticizes immigration, while remaining silent about capitalism, should do the same.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Common Sense View Post
    You actually didn't address anything I said in this post.


    You skipped over it and only addressed my comment on the source.

    I've been polite and I've engaged in discussing the topic. I simply pointed out the source and you've fixated on that rather than other arguments.

    Stop being dishonest.

    You posted http://thepoliticalforums.com/thread...=1#post2734437

    I countered with http://thepoliticalforums.com/thread...=1#post2734447

    And you defended yourself with mere ad hom http://thepoliticalforums.com/thread...=1#post2734468

    I addressed your fallacious defense http://thepoliticalforums.com/thread...=1#post2734519

    And you defended your being illogical...



    Yes, polite and illogical.
    Tradition is not the worship of ashes, but the preservation of fire. ― Gustav Mahler

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    It's an interesting point. Lily-white mainline Protestant denominations are dying off. I tend to agree that this is in part due to vapid and progressive theology but it's also due to indifferentism.
    Whoever criticizes capitalism, while approving immigration, whose working class is its first victim, had better shut up. Whoever criticizes immigration, while remaining silent about capitalism, should do the same.


    ~Alain de Benoist


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    Quote Originally Posted by Chris View Post
    Stop being dishonest.

    You posted http://thepoliticalforums.com/thread...=1#post2734437

    I countered with http://thepoliticalforums.com/thread...=1#post2734447

    And you defended yourself with mere ad hom http://thepoliticalforums.com/thread...=1#post2734468

    I addressed your fallacious defense http://thepoliticalforums.com/thread...=1#post2734519

    And you defended your being illogical...



    Yes, polite and illogical.
    Again, you skipped one...

    Quote Originally Posted by Common Sense View Post
    I think there's certainly an interesting argument to be made that the liberalization of Christian institutions has led to declining congregations, but I don't think it is a primary cause. I think it's an attempt to make Christianity more appealing to a broader audience. It's more of a reaction to declining congregations rather than a cause.

    I think the decline has been caused by a variety of factors. There's a correlation between higher education and a lack of formal religion. The answers science provides has also rendered some religious beliefs innacurate. Cultural dynamics have changed and churches being the centre of community has virtually disappeared in many areas.

    Then there is also the perceived moral bankruptcy of many outspoken religious leaders. Jerry Falwell, Jim Baker, Jimmy Swaggart and the dozens of other Christian leaders scandals have been a black eye on the Religious right. Turning a blind eye to Trumps indiscretions doesn't help either.

    Again, add to that the outspoken nature of Christian Right leaders and their opposition to cultural changes, Catholic sex scandals and you see a growing negative view of Christianity.
    ...but by all means, continue to focus on the supposed ad hom and derail the conversation.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mister D View Post
    It's an interesting point. Lily-white mainline Protestant denominations are dying off. I tend to agree that this is in part due to vapid and progressive theology but it's also due to indifferentism.

    Indifferentism is defined as belief that all religions are equally valid, iow, relativism. More completely but (beware!) religiously defined here: Religious Indifferentism.
    Tradition is not the worship of ashes, but the preservation of fire. ― Gustav Mahler

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  11. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chris View Post
    Indifferentism is defined as belief that all religions are equally valid, iow, relativism. More completely but (beware!) religiously defined here: Religious Indifferentism.
    We see it expressed here quite often even if those expressing it don't know or use the term.

    I sometimes use New Advent.
    Whoever criticizes capitalism, while approving immigration, whose working class is its first victim, had better shut up. Whoever criticizes immigration, while remaining silent about capitalism, should do the same.


    ~Alain de Benoist


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    Liberal or false churches are like weeds, they pop up, they will even say, "Well we don't quote that verse anymore". To keep attracting they have to refuse to preach the Bible. They will bring in secular music, bands, sports, schools, whatever they can to get people to join becasue they can't keep people.

    Then you have the ones planted like a tree, deep into the ground. Over time the tree grows and roots are strong. Their branches are think. Christ is head over their Church and no passages are left out. These are the ones who withstand the test of time.


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