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Thread: Leftism Isn’t a Religion, It’s Something Worse

  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chris View Post
    You wouldn't so characterize what you just did in your anti-religion screed.

    See also Survey: Christianity declining rapidly in US and Blaming Religious Right for Christian Decline.


    Conservatism is not an ideology. "Conservatism is a philosophy, not an ideology. It is the collective wisdom of conservatives such as Evans, Kirk, Goldwater, Buckley, and Abraham Lincoln, who when asked what conservatism is replied, “Is it not adherence to the old and tried, against the new and untried?” Conservatism stands on the solid rock of the American Founding and Western civilization. Its overriding principle is “ordered liberty...." @ What Is Conservatism?
    There was nothing anti religious in my reply. But I'm sure you can point out what you think was anti religious...

    Conservatism is an ideology:

    https://www.britannica.com/topic/conservatism

    A common way of distinguishing conservatism from both liberalism and radicalism is to say that conservatives reject the optimistic view that human beings can be morally improved through political and social change. Conservatives who are Christians sometimes express this point by saying that human beings are guilty of original sin. Skeptical conservatives merely observe that human history, under almost all imaginable political and social circumstances, has been filled with a great deal of evil. Far from believing that human nature is essentially good or that human beings are fundamentally rational, conservatives tend to assume that human beings are driven by their passions and desires—and are therefore naturally prone to selfishness, anarchy, irrationality, and violence. Accordingly, conservatives look to traditional political and cultural institutions to curb humans’ base and destructive instincts. In Burke’s words, people need “a sufficient restraint upon their passions,” which it is the office of government “to bridle and subdue.” Families, churches, and schools must teach the value of self-discipline, and those who fail to learn this lesson must have discipline imposed upon them by government and law. Without the restraining power of such institutions, conservatives believe, there can be no ethical behaviour and no responsible use of liberty.

    Conservatism has often been associated with traditional and established forms of religion.


    https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/conservatism/

    Conservatism and its modernising, anti-traditionalist rivals, liberalism and socialism, are the most influential political philosophies and ideologies of the post-Enlightenment era. Conservatives criticise their rivals for making a utopian exaggeration of the power of theoretical reason, and of human perfectibility. Conservative prescriptions are based on what they regard as experience rather than reason; for them, the ideal and the practical are inseparable. Most commentators regard conservatism as a modern political philosophy, even though it exhibits the standpoint of paternalism or authority, rather than freedom. As John Gray writes, while liberalism is the dominant political theory of the modern age, conservatism, despite appealing to tradition, is also a response to the challenges of modernity. The roots of all three standpoints “may be traced back to the crises of seventeenth-century England, but [they] crystallised into definite traditions of thought and practice only [after] the French Revolution” (Gray 1995: 78).


    Let's remember here again that I said it first and then went out and got two separate credible sources that validate everything I said in my first reply... Human history is rife with such ideologies as WASP far right evangelical conservatism which is exactly what today's "conservatives" are and thus was the story in Salem Massachusetts in 1692 as well. I explained this to you in your other thread about people "leftists" leaving the church. It has never had anything to do with anti religion: those are atheists. It has everything to to with judgmental, punitive, religio centric sectarianism. That is anti American, it's killing the Republican party and the nation's church societies. My own past next door neighbor was a youth minister for a very liberal "touchy feely" church that my kids attended with his family. There were no far right-wing members that I ever met. So I do know what I'm talking about Chris.



    Last edited by jet57; 11-23-2019 at 07:15 PM.

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  3. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by jet57 View Post
    There was nothing anti religious in my reply. But I'm sure you can point out what you think was anti religious...

    Conservatism is an ideology:

    https://www.britannica.com/topic/conservatism



    https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/conservatism/



    Let's remember here again that I said it first and then went out and got two separate credible sources that validate everything I said in my first reply... Human history is rife with such ideologies as WASP far right evangelical conservatism which is exactly what today's "conservatives" are and thus was the story in Salem Massachusetts in 1692 as well. I explained this to you in your other thread about people "leftists" leaving the church. It has never had anything to do with anti religion: those are atheists. It has everything to to with judgmental, punitive, religio centric sectarianism. That is anti American, it's killing the Republican party and the nation's church societies. My own past next door neighbor was a youth minister for a very liberal "touchy feely" church that my kids attended with his family. There were no far right-wing members that I ever met. So I do know what I'm talking about Chris.




    Your first source says nothing to support your contention conservatism is an ideology.

    Your second source merely calls it one but then goes on to give grounds for its not being one.

    I said it first and then went out and got two separate credible sources that validate everything I said in my first reply.
    IOW, you had an opinion and then sought to confirm your bias...and failed in the attempt.
    Tradition is not the worship of ashes, but the preservation of fire. ― Gustav Mahler

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    Quote Originally Posted by Chris View Post
    Your first source says nothing to support your contention conservatism is an ideology.

    Your second source merely calls it one but then goes on to give grounds for its not being one.



    IOW, you had an opinion and then sought to confirm your bias...and failed in the attempt.
    I showed you absolutely where you are wrong Chris.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Chris View Post
    Your first source says nothing to support your contention conservatism is an ideology.

    Your second source merely calls it one but then goes on to give grounds for its not being one.



    IOW, you had an opinion and then sought to confirm your bias...and failed in the attempt.
    If it's not an ideology per se, it is definitely a philosophy i.e. if it ain't broke, don't fix it while ignoring the fact that while it may not be broken for some, it may be broken for others. That is particularly true of conservatives who believe that social stratification is not only natural but necessary. Of course those who believe that and have expounded on it at length, have tended to be on the top of the social heap. Others believe that we should live by 'traditional' social rules and values as defined by religion and others still believe in some combination of both.
    In quoting my post, you affirm and agree that you have not been goaded, provoked, emotionally manipulated or otherwise coerced into responding.



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    Quote Originally Posted by jet57 View Post
    I showed you absolutely where you are wrong Chris.
    Except you didn't, jet, your sources turned against you. Perhaps you should read them.

    The problem you have, jet, is you fail to even begin to define ideology in order to then show conservatism falls into that definition.

    The OP does that, defines ideology:

    ...most adherents of modern ideologies focus on certain narratives: “Humans, particularly the ones in first-world countries, are destroying the planet,” “The system is rigged and the rich are oppressing the poor,” or “The white patriarchy continues to hold down women and people of color at all levels.” Where they go with this depends less on logic and more on how much they care. Those who care deeply become activists joining and organizing various marches and sit-ins; those who care somewhat become “slacktivists” who periodically post articles about injustice on social media; and those who care a little may just vote Democrat and blithely ignore arguments from the other side.
    Conservatism doesn't do that. It's more or less a system of beliefs while ideology is based on a single belief.

    C.S. Lewis points this out in his essay The Poison of Subjectivism:

    He [the ideologue] usually has at the back of his mind the notion that if he throws over traditional judgement of value, he will find something else, something more “real” or “solid” on which to base a new scheme of values. He will say, for example, “We must abandon irrational taboos and base our values on the good of the community” – as if the maxim “Thou shalt promote the good of the community’ were anything more than a polysyllabic variant of ‘Do as you would be done by’ which has itself no other basis than the old universal value judgement that he claims to be rejecting. Or he will endeavor to base his values on biology and tell us that we must act thus and thus for the preservation of our species. Apparently he does not anticipate the question, ‘Why should the species be preserved?’ He takes it for granted that it should, because he is really relying on traditional judgements of value. If he were starting, as he pretends, with a clean slate, he could never reach this principle. Sometimes he tries to do so by falling back on “instinct.” “We have an instinct to preserve our species”, he may say. But have we? And if we have, who told us that we must obey our instincts? And why should we obey this instinct in the teeth of many others which conflict with the preservation of the species? The reformer knows that some instincts are to be obeyed more than others only because he is judging instincts by a standard, and the standard is, once more, the traditional morality which he claims to be superseding. The instincts themselves obviously cannot furnish us with grounds for grading the instincts in a hierarchy. If you do not bring a knowledge of their comparative respectability to your study of them, you can never derive it from them.
    The conservative is the traditionalist.
    Tradition is not the worship of ashes, but the preservation of fire. ― Gustav Mahler

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Who View Post
    If it's not an ideology per se, it is definitely a philosophy i.e. if it ain't broke, don't fix it while ignoring the fact that while it may not be broken for some, it may be broken for others. That is particularly true of conservatives who believe that social stratification is not only natural but necessary. Of course those who believe that and have expounded on it at length, have tended to be on the top of the social heap. Others believe that we should live by 'traditional' social rules and values as defined by religion and others still believe in some combination of both.

    All that, at least what makes sense--the Marxian oppression stuff does not, furthers the argument conservatism is not an ideology.

    See my previous post for a definition of ideology. A philosophy is a system of beliefs.
    Tradition is not the worship of ashes, but the preservation of fire. ― Gustav Mahler

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    Quote Originally Posted by Chris View Post
    All that, at least what makes sense--the Marxian oppression stuff does not, furthers the argument conservatism is not an ideology.

    See my previous post for a definition of ideology. A philosophy is a system of beliefs.
    You amazingly pull Marxian oppression out of virtually any statement. Equality of opportunity is not Marxian, but belief in social stratification is definitely elitist and conservative.
    In quoting my post, you affirm and agree that you have not been goaded, provoked, emotionally manipulated or otherwise coerced into responding.



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    Quote Originally Posted by Chris View Post
    Except you didn't, jet, your sources turned against you. Perhaps you should read them.

    The problem you have, jet, is you fail to even begin to define ideology in order to then show conservatism falls into that definition.

    The OP does that, defines ideology:



    Conservatism doesn't do that. It's more or less a system of beliefs while ideology is based on a single belief.

    C.S. Lewis points this out in his essay The Poison of Subjectivism:



    The conservative is the traditionalist.
    i·de·ol·o·gy

    /ˌīdēˈäləjē,ˌidēˈäləjē/
    noun
    • 1.
      a system of ideas and ideals, especially one which forms the basis of economic or political theory and policy.
      "the ideology of republicanism"

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Who View Post
    If it's not an ideology per se, it is definitely a philosophy i.e. if it ain't broke, don't fix it while ignoring the fact that while it may not be broken for some, it may be broken for others. That is particularly true of conservatives who believe that social stratification is not only natural but necessary. Of course those who believe that and have expounded on it at length, have tended to be on the top of the social heap. Others believe that we should live by 'traditional' social rules and values as defined by religion and others still believe in some combination of both.
    Of course philosophy is a better term to describe conservativism. Conservativism is an approach to politics or a "philosophy". Conservatives can espouse very different ideas depending on their cultural context. Marxists, as ideologues, not so much.
    Whoever criticizes capitalism, while approving immigration, whose working class is its first victim, had better shut up. Whoever criticizes immigration, while remaining silent about capitalism, should do the same.


    ~Alain de Benoist


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    Quote Originally Posted by Mister D View Post
    Of course philosophy is a better term to describe conservativism. Conservativism is an approach to politics or a "philosophy". Conservatives can espouse very different ideas depending on their cultural context. Marxists, as ideologues, not so much.
    'Marxists' may well be ideologues, but liberals, not so much. However when you make conservatism, liberalism or any other 'ism' particularly political and an identification with a specific political party, it can become ideological.
    In quoting my post, you affirm and agree that you have not been goaded, provoked, emotionally manipulated or otherwise coerced into responding.



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