The Violence Project - Anatomy of a Mass Shooter

[Peter1469]

It is my understanding that the provisions of Red Flag laws vary from state to state. However, in all cases there is an ex parte hearing before a judge. There is also an opportunity for the subject of the order to essentially appeal the ruling. The timing for the adversarial hearing has been the subject of much debate, with some suggesting that it should be within 48 hours. I take it that you object to the initial ex parte hearing. However, an adversarial hearing in place of an ex parte hearing would require that the subject have the time to prepare some kind of defense, and if that person is potentially about to kill a great many people or even commit suicide, what you might be accomplishing is simply giving them the opportunity to act sooner than later while they still have access to firearms they own and the ability to legally purchase them.

Not in Maryland. Someone did a Red Flag and the Citizen's house was assaulted with a SWAT Team at 3am. He tried to defend his home and was shot dead.

[Peter1469]

I have read the articles. They are lying to you.

If you go back to the specific shootings all of the shooters were on SSRIs or went cold turkey off them. Then when someone writes an article about it years later they change the story.

While there have been a few cases where such medications were implicated, I have been unable to find any actual studies that indicate that all of these mass shooters were taking SSRI anti-depressants. In fact there is a great deal of misinformation or disinformation on the web regarding a causal link between these shootings and SSRI anti-depressants. According to this research paper, while a number of the shooters had been on SSRI's at some point in their history few were found with any drugs of any kind in their systems after the shootings. Here is the summary:

How many school shooters were on psychiatric medications — or coming off them — at the time of their attacks? The following data is drawn from the sample of 48 shooters profiled in my book School Shooters: Understanding High School, College, and Adult Perpetrators. Out of 24 secondary school shooters, only two were taking medication at the time of their attacks: Eric Harris and Jeffrey Weise. Alvaro Castillo might have been, or he may have stopped his medication within three weeks of his attack and thus still have been coming off the drug. If we include him, then 12.5% of the sample was taking medications. Put differently, over 87% of the secondary school shooters were not on psychiatric medications at the time of their attacks. Furthermore, there is no evidence that medication made Harris, Weise, or Castillo manic or psychotic.


The numbers are essentially the same for the college and adult shooters. Of the 24 in these two groups (13 college and 11 aberrant adult), two were taking psychiatric medications at the time of their attacks: Laurie Dann and Matti Saari. Because Steven Kazmierczak had only recently stopped taking his medication, perhaps he should be included, for a total of three shooters with at least some trace of medication in their bodies at the time of their attacks. Thus, 12.5% of the college and adult shooters were on medication at the time of their attacks. Again, there is no evidence that medication made them manic, agitated, or violent. Taken all together, only 6 out of 48 shooters (12.5%) were on medication at the time of their attacks. Even if we were to accept that psychiatric drugs caused these attacks, this still leaves over 87% of the incidents unaccounted for.


Interestingly, a study of prescription rates for psychiatric medications in the United States in 2010 found that 20% of adults were prescribed psychiatric drugs (America’s State of Mind: A Report by Medco). This provides some context for considering medication use among school shooters.


It is possible that another couple of shooters may have taken medication recently enough for them to be considered as “coming off” the medication. Even if we add a couple of the ambiguous cases to the list, however, this still means that only 8 out of 48 shooters were under the influence of medication. This is a ratio of 5 : 1 shooters who weren’t on medication compared to those who were. The overwhelming majority of school shooters were not medicated or going through withdrawal at the time of their attacks.


The belief that psychiatric medications cause school shootings is not supported at either the societal or the individual level.


At the societal level, the argument that the rise in the use of psychiatric drugs has caused a corresponding rise in violence and homicide does not hold water for the simple fact that there has been no corresponding rise in violence and homicide. Just the opposite. Over a twenty-year period, violent crime in general and homicides by youths in particular decreased significantly. Medications cannot be blamed for a crisis of “mania, murder and mayhem” because there is no such crisis.


The argument at the level of individual shooters is damaged by the frequent errors made by people espousing their views, including inaccurate claims about which shooters took medications, whether they were on medications at the time of their attacks, and the effects the medications actually had on them.The concern about adverse effects of psychiatric medications is a legitimate concern and worthy of ongoing research.


This concern, however, is not well served by assumptions, misinformation, and innuendo in the place of facts.

[Chris]

Studies like this aren't an a la carte menu.

The study presents 4 commonalities. You can't choose to accept three and disregard the fourth because you don't like it. You certainly can't claim the fourth can't be discussed simply because you feel it's invalid.

Yes, you can claim it is invalid if you show it is fallacious. That's been demonstrated and explained.

No one dismissed it because they just didn't like it. Strawman.

[Peter1469]

One of the more recent drug-induced mass shootings, which took place at Fort Hood in Texas, was also linked to SSRIs, though the mainstream media has been reluctant to name which ones. An all-too-familiar scenario, the shooter had reportedly been taking the medications when he suddenly decided to go on a violent rampage, killing everyone in sight before finally turning his weapon on himself for the final kill.
When horrific events like this occur, their connection to pharmaceuticals is routinely downplayed, almost as a matter of policy. It is apparently better to just keep things quiet in order to protect the drug companies, while millions more of our children are prescribed a class of drugs that has the potential to permanently alter their brain chemistry and cause them to commit these and other violent acts.


Expert psychiatrist says more than 4,000 additional suicides occur annually in US and Europe due to antidepressants


According to David Healy, author of more than 150 peer-reviewed papers in the field of psychiatry, as well as the author of several books, SSRIs are responsible for triggering some 4,000 additional suicides annually in both the U.S. and Europe. This figure is based on clinical trial data that Healy gained access to that was never publicly released, but of which drug companies are fully aware.

[Dr. Who]

Indeed it is my argument that the fourth commonality is circular. It stands as is because you have failed to address it. The above also sidesteps addressing my argument. I did not say it's circular because it's not a cause, I said it's a circular commonality because the study limited itself to a cohort of that commonality.


"You start by raging...."

"if you want to participate in this thread, confine your comments to the scope of the subject matter." and "Again, confine your comments to the topic."

Good grief. Mass shooters could also comprise serial killers who shoot more than 4 people over a period of several years in all manner of locations - serial killers who use guns are actually a specific subgroup of serial killers. That kind of killer is going to have a completely different profile than the rampage killer variety. Hence confining the study to mass shooters who choose a single location. While some individuals who may have the same characteristics as those in the study may kill in multiple locations, allowing in multiple locations also brings in data on too many other types of killers i.e. those with sexual, political or criminal motives.

[Peter1469]

When we are discussing mass shooters we are not discussing hood rats that spray and pray and accidentally hit a lot of people.

We are talking about people who go to a public space like a school and shoot until they are stopped or they kill themselves.

[Dr. Who]

I don't dispute the fact that SSRI's are implicated in suicides, but that for the most part they are not implicated in most mass shootings. What can be said about SSRI's and those who commit mass shootings is that the perpretrators often have a prior history of being treated with SSRI's to address specific psychological disorders, hence psychological disorders are one of the findings common to a percentage of mass shooters. The negative side affects of SSRI's generally present very shortly after beginning the course of treatment and sudden onset suicidal ideation is one of those black box warnings.

[Peter1469]

I don't dispute the fact that SSRI's are implicated in suicides, but that for the most part they are not implicated in most mass shootings. What can be said about SSRI's and those who commit mass shootings is that the perpretrators often have a prior history of being treated with SSRI's to address specific psychological disorders, hence psychological disorders are one of the findings common to a percentage of mass shooters. The negative side affects of SSRI's generally present very shortly after beginning the course of treatment and sudden onset suicidal ideation is one of those black box warnings.

Wrong. If you find the initial news stories about these mass shootings SSRIs are always implicated.

As I said above, the news re-writes these stories years after the fact.

[Dr. Who]

Not in Maryland. Someone did a Red Flag and the Citizen's house was assaulted with a SWAT Team at 3am. He tried to defend his home and was shot dead.

That would suggest that there is something wrong with the police actions which clearly created a crisis and pushed the citizen into a fight or flight reaction. That's a significant problem with how the police approach non-criminal issues.

[Dr. Who]

I have read the articles. They are lying to you.

If you go back to the specific shootings all of the shooters were on SSRIs or went cold turkey off them. Then when someone writes an article about it years later they change the story.

The doctor who is responsible for that research paper suggests that many early conclusions drawn in media reports are often incorrect. If you access the paper, he did not rely on news reports but confirmed his data with the actual police departments.