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Thread: Historians’ reaction to the 1619 Project

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rationalist View Post
    I can at least respect the old guard for being more consistent. The SJW socialists don't even seem to grasp the basics of economics.
    I find more traditional critiques of capitalism interesting. What many leftists don't realize is that some of the themes we associate with Marxists and socialists were first articulated by European, specifically French, conservatives. The problem with Marxism is that as an economic theory and political theory it's simply false.
    Whoever criticizes capitalism, while approving immigration, whose working class is its first victim, had better shut up. Whoever criticizes immigration, while remaining silent about capitalism, should do the same.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Mister D View Post
    I find more traditional critiques of capitalism interesting. What many leftists don't realize is that some of the themes we associate with Marxists and socialists were first articulated by European, specifically French, conservatives. The problem with Marxism is that as an economic theory and political theory it's simply false.
    Because Marx's economic theory is based on capitalism. It simply modified the capitalist model, he got from Adam Smith and David Ricardo, by removing the owners and putting the workers in charge, and thereby increase productivity.
    Edmund Burke: "In vain you tell me that Artificial Government is good, but that I fall out only with the Abuse. The Thing! the Thing itself is the Abuse!"

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    jet57's Avatar Senior Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chris View Post
    Because Marx's economic theory is based on capitalism. It simply modified the capitalist model, he got from Adam Smith and David Ricardo, by removing the owners and putting the workers in charge, and thereby increase productivity.
    Marx's economic theory was "labor theory". Labor is capitalism broken down to it's lowest common denominator, so in THAT sense you are correct. What Marx did was remove the nobility factor; that which brought about the title of the Robber Baron for instance. Private property was used in western Europe, from the age of feudalism to oppress and suppress those who owned none: thus the Russian revolution, the French Revolution, the American Revolution and on and on. Oppression and suppression of human beings in the American colonies ended slavery eighty nine years after we declared our independence, a very very quick end to an industry that was really thousands of years old. The notion that this country entertained slavery for over 400 years is just nonsense. But it was THAT labor that we made real: that labor that Marx was talking about.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jet57 View Post
    Marx's economic theory was "labor theory". Labor is capitalism broken down to it's lowest common denominator, so in THAT sense you are correct. What Marx did was remove the nobility factor; that which brought about the title of the Robber Baron for instance. Private property was used in western Europe, from the age of feudalism to oppress and suppress those who owned none: thus the Russian revolution, the French Revolution, the American Revolution and on and on. Oppression and suppression of human beings in the American colonies ended slavery eighty nine years after we declared our independence, a very very quick end to an industry that was really thousands of years old. The notion that this country entertained slavery for over 400 years is just nonsense. But it was THAT labor that we made real: that labor that Marx was talking about.
    Yes, Smith and Ricardo's labor theory of value. Since debunked and no onger held.

    Labor is not capitalism.

    From that error on you veer off into more error much the same way Marx did in his historical interpretations.
    Edmund Burke: "In vain you tell me that Artificial Government is good, but that I fall out only with the Abuse. The Thing! the Thing itself is the Abuse!"

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    Quote Originally Posted by Chris View Post
    Yes, Smith and Ricardo's labor theory of value. Since debunked and no onger held.

    Labor is not capitalism.

    From that error on you veer off into more error much the same way Marx did in his historical interpretations.
    Nope: you don't know European history; that's very clear. And labor IS capitalism: "this for that"... That's what capitalism IS. Marx's labor theory was to spread "capital for labor" amongst the working people. Read up on "The Diggers".

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    A Fact-Checker Warned NYT About Their Inaccurate 1619 Project. The Times Didn’t Listen.

    Leslie Harris, a history professor at Northwestern University and an author, took to Politico to explain her experience with the Times’ 1619 Project and its claim that the American Revolution was fought to preserve slavery. Harris said she previously had argued against the idea to include that claim. She said she received an email from a Times research editor asking her to verify the following assertion: “One critical reason that the colonists declared their independence from Britain was because they wanted to protect the institution of slavery in the colonies, which had produced tremendous wealth. At the time there were growing calls to abolish slavery throughout the British Empire, which would have badly damaged the economies of colonies in both North and South.”

    I vigorously disputed the claim. Although slavery was certainly an issue in the American Revolution, the protection of slavery was not one of the main reasons the 13 Colonies went to war.

    The editor followed up with several questions probing the nature of slavery in the Colonial era, such as whether enslaved people were allowed to read, could legally marry, could congregate in groups of more than four, and could own, will or inherit property—the answers to which vary widely depending on the era and the colony. I explained these histories as best I could—with references to specific examples—but never heard back from her about how the information would be used.

    Despite my advice, the Times published the incorrect statement about the American Revolution anyway, in Hannah-Jones’ introductory essay. In addition, the paper’s characterizations of slavery in early America reflected laws and practices more common in the antebellum era than in Colonial times, and did not accurately illustrate the varied experiences of the first generation of enslaved people that arrived in Virginia in 1619.

    ...Still Harris acknowledges just how wrong the Times got its Revolutionary era facts wrong, and the fact that her concerns were ignored shows just how little the paper cared to be factually right – rather than politically right – in regards to the entire project.
    IOW, fake news.
    Edmund Burke: "In vain you tell me that Artificial Government is good, but that I fall out only with the Abuse. The Thing! the Thing itself is the Abuse!"

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    Quote Originally Posted by jet57 View Post
    Nope: you don't know European history; that's very clear. And labor IS capitalism: "this for that"... That's what capitalism IS. Marx's labor theory was to spread "capital for labor" amongst the working people. Read up on "The Diggers".
    Yesterday you claimed fascism is capitalism.
    Edmund Burke: "In vain you tell me that Artificial Government is good, but that I fall out only with the Abuse. The Thing! the Thing itself is the Abuse!"

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    Progressives always object but this reflects a loathing of American society and institutions not a willingness to acknowledge the past and make the country better.
    Whoever criticizes capitalism, while approving immigration, whose working class is its first victim, had better shut up. Whoever criticizes immigration, while remaining silent about capitalism, should do the same.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Chris View Post
    Yesterday you claimed fascism is capitalism.
    I never said any such thing.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jet57 View Post
    I never said any such thing.
    Glad to see you renege because the two are not the same.
    Edmund Burke: "In vain you tell me that Artificial Government is good, but that I fall out only with the Abuse. The Thing! the Thing itself is the Abuse!"

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