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Thread: Luther and Liberalism

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    Luther and Liberalism

    I'd agree with the assessment in Luther and Liberalism of Luther as catalyst and not cause of individualism in the West. It was likely, following MacDonald's Individualism and the Western Liberal Tradition, in the blood (DNA) of early NW hunter-gathers and the influx of Indo-Europeans, as well did Christianity and the Church long embody it.

    Numerous historical accounts present Martin Luther as the starting point for the rise of Western liberalism....

    While serving as a convenient dividing point—and however significant in other ways—I am unsure that Luther truly rates either as a positive or negative factor in the rise of liberalism....

    Although Luther provides a convenient dividing point in telling the story of liberalism in Western history, the temptation exists to mistake a convenient focal point for causation—the old post hoc (ergo propter hoc) fallacy.

    If anything, Luther was a catalyst rather than a cause. Both fans and detractors treat Luther as introducing something truly de novo. Truth is, Luther was very much a man of his times. His theology was, if anything, a reaction to long existing and deepening individualistic (and, hence, liberalizing) currents in the religion and society of his day. It was because of the individualistic turn in Medieval piety prior to Luther that his theology struck the nerve that it did while earlier proto-protestant movements did not. Even the groundwork for the unintended political consequences had been set prior to Luther in the Schism and “papal revolution” (Harold Berman’s phrase in Law and Revolution for Pope Gregory VII’s reforms) of the 12th century.

    My point is not to deny that Luther is an important figure in the history of the West. The question is whether he is—for better or for worse—the causal figure of so much liberal historiography. Luther may be better understood as a man more reflecting his time than creating it. Or, perhaps, a figure who served as a catalyst rather than as a causal agent.

    ...
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    Definitely. Even if you argue its origins are more theological than cultural (I would) Luther is still catalyst not cause. Luther was a product of currents long present in Medieval Catholicism.
    Whoever criticizes capitalism, while approving immigration, whose working class is its first victim, had better shut up. Whoever criticizes immigration, while remaining silent about capitalism, should do the same.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Chris View Post
    I'd agree with the assessment in Luther and Liberalism of Luther as catalyst and not cause of individualism in the West. It was likely, following MacDonald's Individualism and the Western Liberal Tradition, in the blood (DNA) of early NW hunter-gathers and the influx of Indo-Europeans, as well did Christianity and the Church long embody it.
    Protestantism and the individual go hand in hand: it was outside the collective body that a man could have his own relationship with God. Private property laws were tied into individualism as well, so I would hardly put to "Liberalism" the way you usually context it.

    Gregory VII was a pretty wise man and could see the handwriting on the wall. The problem was the monied nobility which kept the church chained to them and brought about the 95 thesis, which brings us 'round to the individual. It's a shame that corruption has lasted as long as it has, but it always brings around change.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jet57 View Post
    Protestantism and the individual go hand in hand: it was outside the collective body that a man could have his own relationship with God. Private property laws were tied into individualism as well, so I would hardly put to "Liberalism" the way you usually context it.

    Gregory VII was a pretty wise man and could see the handwriting on the wall. The problem was the monied nobility which kept the church chained to them and brought about the 95 thesis, which brings us 'round to the individual. It's a shame that corruption has lasted as long as it has, but it always brings around change.
    Christianity and individualism go hand in hand, fist established by the Catholic Church, based on man's personal relationship to God, the Protestants just followed suit.
    Tradition is not the worship of ashes, but the preservation of fire. ― Gustav Mahler

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    Quote Originally Posted by Chris View Post
    Christianity and individualism go hand in hand, fist established by the Catholic Church, based on man's personal relationship to God, the Protestants just followed suit.
    No, the protestants cut out the middle man; the Pope.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jet57 View Post
    No, the protestants cut out the middle man; the Pope.
    Indeed, it would be a mistake to see the individualism fostered by Catholics as the same as that of the Protestants, or either of them as the same as that of the Enlightenment or especially of modern times. White the Protestants removed the Pope, the Enlightenment removed God with the invention of social contracts of Hobbes and Rousseau tied the individual to the state. Today, modernity, the individual has been separated from all the common values he once shared in family, religion, and community, with only political and economical ties remaining.
    Tradition is not the worship of ashes, but the preservation of fire. ― Gustav Mahler

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    Quote Originally Posted by Chris View Post
    Indeed, it would be a mistake to see the individualism fostered by Catholics as the same as that of the Protestants, or either of them as the same as that of the Enlightenment or especially of modern times. White the Protestants removed the Pope, the Enlightenment removed God with the invention of social contracts of Hobbes and Rousseau tied the individual to the state. Today, modernity, the individual has been separated from all the common values he once shared in family, religion, and community, with only political and economical ties remaining.
    Separated and tied by whom and for what purpose?

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    Quote Originally Posted by jet57 View Post
    Separated and tied by whom and for what purpose?
    Tied by man's social nature. Separated by social contract.
    Tradition is not the worship of ashes, but the preservation of fire. ― Gustav Mahler

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    Quote Originally Posted by Chris View Post
    Tied by man's social nature. Separated by social contract.
    Separated; so you're an anarchist...

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    Quote Originally Posted by jet57 View Post
    Separated; so you're an anarchist...
    So you don't understand social contract.

    If you have a point to make, make it or so long.
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