It's Always About Religion

[FindersKeepers]

You are not a Christian. You don't understand us. I get upset when so called Christian think they talk for Judiasm, don't ever talk for us.

Where did that come from? I'm just mentioning that people are becoming less religious. I didn't mention Christianity specifically, but I do understand Christians -- I used to be one. As far as "talking for Judiasm," what did you mean by that?

[NapRover]

How so? I tend to think it will make for a kinder world.

Well, just reading the multitude of biblical accounts of those who abandoned God, they were repaid with war, famine and pestilence. I think it’s wise to try and get closer to God, not farther away.

[Standing Wolf]

Religion is the original two-edged sword. On the one hand, a belief in either a supreme deity who cares what people do and inspires them to good deeds, or in some set of supernatural principles that serve as a guide to behavior, account for a massive amount of good in the world. On the other hand, religious beliefs can and do "inspire" other people to hatred, discrimination and violence, and that has been going on throughout recorded history.

[Chris]

Religion is the original two-edged sword. On the one hand, a belief in either a supreme deity who cares what people do and inspires them to good deeds, or in some set of supernatural principles that serve as a guide to behavior, account for a massive amount of good in the world. On the other hand, religious beliefs can and do "inspire" other people to hatred, discrimination and violence, and that has been going on throughout recorded history.

Ditto secular beliefs in the almighty state.

[The Sage of Main Street]

Uh, no, it doesn't. The COnstitution is the law of the land.

If you say so, making sure that we, the people, have no say in the actual lawmaking process. So, by its effect, that phrase must have meant, "We, the people at the Constitutional Convention who represent the 1%, take away self-determination from the 99%." A sheltered elitist oligarchy making all our legislative decisions for us is tyranny; only because the same clique controls what we think do the American people "consent" to letting it have its way.

[Standing Wolf]

If you say so, making sure that we, the people, have no say in the actual lawmaking process. So, by its effect, that phrase must have meant, "We, the people at the Constitutional Convention who represent the 1%, take away self-determination from the 99%." A sheltered elitist oligarchy making all our legislative decisions for us is tyranny; only when the same clique controls what we think will the real people consent to letting it have its way.

There's a word for everyone making and following their own rules: Anarchy. Think your life would be better without the rule of law? You're welcome to go find that somewhere. I hear Somalia is pretty this time of year.

[Chris]

If you say so, making sure that we, the people, have no say in the actual lawmaking process. So, by its effect, that phrase must have meant, "We, the people at the Constitutional Convention who represent the 1%, take away self-determination from the 99%." A sheltered elitist oligarchy making all our legislative decisions for us is tyranny; only because the same clique controls what we think do the American people "consent" to letting it have its way.

Except I didn't argue that. Of course we can participate in the lawmaking process, as or through representatives, and all within the bounds of the Constitution.

You seem unaware that after state delegates signed and adopted the Constitution, it was then over several years ratified by the states.

[Chris]

There's a word for everyone making and following their own rules: Anarchy. Think your life would be better without the rule of law? You're welcome to go find that somewhere. I hear Somalia is pretty this time of year.

That's a lousy definition of anarchy. Anarchy is not chaos as you straw man it, but simply RULES without RULERS. Last I looked Rojava is a great example.

As for Somalia, you have a strange view of it.

Anarchy in Somalia

...It's not just the telecom industry that has improved. A different article outlines the change in some major indices over the last 20 years of (relative) statelessness:

Somalia: How Has Life Changed?



With the exception of the drop in birth rates (which is ambiguous) and the drop in access to safe water (which is clearly a bad thing), the above chart shows incredible progress on numerous fronts. I daresay that if a UN or World Bank intervention into a state-controlled African country had yielded such results, it would be trumpeted from the hilltops.

...Regarding Somalia in particular, Ben Powell et al. have done fantastic work analyzing Somalia before and after its transition to statelessness, and also comparing its fate with similar African nations. Their conclusion is that — of course — stateless Somalia is no paradise, but its lack of a corrupt, brutal government has given it an advantage over its former self and its current peers.

Somalia has achieved remarkable progress since the collapse of the brutal dictatorship of Siad Barre in 1991. If people in the more developed countries of the world wish to help the impoverished region, we can certainly send money and even visit to offer medical services and other assistance. But if the West foists the "gift" of another state on the beleaguered Somalis, their appropriate response should be, "No, you shouldn't have."

Somali “Anarchy” Is More Orderly than Somali Government

...Once the U.N. withdrew, a relative peace developed in Somalia. Crime and violence persisted, but not at the levels seen during the civil war. Various clan elders, warlords, and Islamic courts had power, but none were strong enough to impose themselves as the new government, and most of the fighting stopped.

Once this relative peace was achieved, the Somalis began to order their affairs and adapt institutions to provide governance, even though they lacked a government. Most of the order was provided by Somalia’s customary legal code, the Xeer, which was interpreted by clan elders and informally enforced, mainly through ostracism. Islamic courts existed, but most had little influence. Islamic law was reserved mostly for matters of divorce and inheritance, while the common law covered everything else.

Although Somalia is still poor, the ordered "anarchy" that has existed since the mid–1990s has actually translated into improved living standards. In conducting research for a new study comparing Somalia’s economy relative to 42 other African countries, my coauthors and I examined 13 different measures, including life expectancy, immunization and disease rates, access to various telecommunications, and access to water/sanitation....

Ordered anarchy, who'd've thunk it possible?

[Mister D]

How so? I tend to think it will make for a kinder world.

What could possibly lead you to such a conclusion?

[FindersKeepers]

What could possibly lead you to such a conclusion?

While individual religious doctrines espouse peace, they also provide the justification for killing and war. They offer a way to dehumanize one's enemies and it's a short step from dehumanization to killing. Religion also creates heroes and martyrs. It's less likely the 911 hijackers would have given their own lives so willingly -- and killed innocents -- if religion wasn't a part of their mindset.

Hitler repeated the words of Jesus Christ that the Pharisees were the children of the Devil, words the ADL has tried in vain to have removed from the New Testament, since today's Jewry is descended of those earlier Pharisees.

I'm not saying all religion is bad -- obviously, it's not -- we regularly work with a branch of Mennonite Aid to help those impacted by natural disasters, and they're always on the scene long before the Red Cross shows up. I'm just saying that much of the turmoil we have today: Sunni versus Shia versus Hindi versus Christian, is religious in nature. And if a person firmly believes that their religion is the only "true" way to God then it's easier to look at folks from other religions as being "enemies of God."

Given that most religions are patriarchal in nature as well, in regions where religious fervor is strongest, women are often second-class citizens. And, of course, homosexuals tend to piss off the very religious as well.