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Thread: Self-Government Requires Self-Governing Citizens

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    Self-Government Requires Self-Governing Citizens

    What self-government orginally meant and what, regretfully, it has become.

    Self-Government Requires Self-Governing Citizens

    In the earliest dictionaries of American English, the definition of self-government was not political, but reflected the same personal quality expressed by Findley [During the first four decades of the American Republic, the irascible William Findley was the leading state politician of the Western Pennsylvania backcountry.]—it was the “government of one’s self.” This remained true as late as 1959 when the Merriam-Webster dictionary defined self-government as “Self-control; self-command,” and self-control meant simply, “control of one’s self.” The second definition followed, and is the one usually expressed today as majority rule. What was unusual for a dictionary definition was that the second definition was made dependent on the first: “Hence, government by the joint action of the mass of people constituting a civil body; also, the state of being so governed; specifically, democratic government.” By the inclusion of “Hence,” the dictionary reflected the view that you could not have democracy or the rule of law without individuals capable of governing themselves. The present edition of the dictionary has dropped that beginning, and today, we appear to think primarily of the collective, governmental meaning of self-government. Indeed many current English dictionaries simply list majority rule as the only definition of the term. To recapture a sense of the older notion, we need to go back to a time when Americans still maintained a clear conception of themselves as a people composed of individuals capable of self-government. The American revolution was the dramatic culmination of just such a moment.
    Tradition is not the worship of ashes, but the preservation of fire. ― Gustav Mahler

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    Quote Originally Posted by Chris View Post
    What self-government orginally meant and what, regretfully, it has become.

    Self-Government Requires Self-Governing Citizens
    You'll have to elaborate a bit on that: I don't get your point. Both before and after the American Revolution there was always a part of the general population that would be considered "out of control"... so I'm sure where you're going.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jet57 View Post
    You'll have to elaborate a bit on that: I don't get your point. Both before and after the American Revolution there was always a part of the general population that would be considered "out of control"... so I'm sure where you're going.
    Just that self-government begins with the self and not the state.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chris View Post
    Just that self-government begins with the self and not the state.
    Yeah, no... Self government of a society is a social contract, and representatives thereof form the state(s). It is all made up of individuals who represent themselves and those in their particular group all working toward their betterment.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jet57 View Post
    Yeah, no... Self government of a society is a social contract, and representatives thereof form the state(s). It is all made up of individuals who represent themselves and those in their particular group all working toward their betterment.
    So you're an adherent of Enlightenment individualism and Rousseau's Social Contract theory like most liberals on the left.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chris View Post
    So you're an adherent of Enlightenment individualism and Rousseau's Social Contract theory like most liberals on the left.
    I am a fan of neither. Rousseau wrote about what was already factual, he just explained it the very same way that physicists explain universal laws of motion and black holes; and how you can broad brush 'liberals' like that is beyond me. Clans and tribes operated the same way for thousands of years before Rousseau was born. The enlightenment was simply a philosophy that didn't use the Christian model. It too just explained what was obvious and articulated to the mass how the individual was a part of a larger whole. It was the individuality of people people that add the dynamics of society. Leaders are people who move as individuals usually to protect through war or politics. Tyrants are people who lead through brutality: they are not leaders but social pirates.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jet57 View Post
    I am a fan of neither. Rousseau wrote about what was already factual, he just explained it the very same way that physicists explain universal laws of motion and black holes; and how you can broad brush 'liberals' like that is beyond me. Clans and tribes operated the same way for thousands of years before Rousseau was born. The enlightenment was simply a philosophy that didn't use the Christian model. It too just explained what was obvious and articulated to the mass how the individual was a part of a larger whole. It was the individuality of people people that add the dynamics of society. Leaders are people who move as individuals usually to protect through war or politics. Tyrants are people who lead through brutality: they are not leaders but social pirates.

    You're a fan of neither and yet you trotted out their arguments and now defend them?

    Rousseau wrote about what was already factual, he just explained it the very same way that physicists explain universal laws of motion and black holes...
    One problem, Rousseau, as an individualist, posited primitive man existed as individuals who required a social contract to create society. But that is dead wrong, man always existed in various social groups, from family to tribe to clan, which social organization defined a hierarchical ordering--sans social contract. Even you contradict yourself and Rousseau: "Clans and tribes operated the same way for thousands of years before Rousseau was born."

    Rousseau's theory wasn't factional, it was fictional.

    ...and how you can broad brush 'liberals' like that is beyond me.
    Classical liberalism.

    Most things are beyond you, jet.

    The enlightenment was simply a philosophy that didn't use the Christian model.
    Individualism derives largely from Christianity.


    The rest of your fictional hogwash ignored.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chris View Post
    You're a fan of neither and yet you trotted out their arguments and now defend them?



    One problem, Rousseau, as an individualist, posited primitive man existed as individuals who required a social contract to create society. But that is dead wrong, man always existed in various social groups, from family to tribe to clan, which social organization defined a hierarchical ordering--sans social contract. Even you contradict yourself and Rousseau: "Clans and tribes operated the same way for thousands of years before Rousseau was born."

    Rousseau's theory wasn't factional, it was fictional.



    Classical liberalism.

    Most things are beyond you, jet.



    Individualism derives largely from Christianity.


    The rest of your fictional hogwash ignored.
    And every society had it's own contracts of some sort... and again: The enlightenment was simply a philosophy that didn't use the Christian model.

    Individualism was used as a pejorative in Franc e after the their Revolution juxtaposed to the collective of The People; the same collective model that our country was founded on: WE the people, remember? The rest of the stuff you won't answer is of course - because you have no answer, as always, it's over your head.

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