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Thread: America v China

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    America v China

    There’s a great deal of nonsense written and general misinformation about China on forums, specifically from those in the US. The nonsense resembles the same type as that arising in North Korea, who receive their indoctrinated information from the same source of political and media hype. Having both lived and worked for several years in China in recent years andvisited the DPRK, here’s my short piece.


    In a post-industrial era, we’ve now entered a period of beliefs because for many the reality is too painful, but it’s a historical fact that once a country or Empire loses its dominance it never regains it. There will never be another USSR, British Empire, or for that matter another post-war American ‘golden age’ and all empires have a shelf-life. In our belief era, politicians promise the impossible and the media now owned by six corporations and run by partisan editorial boards cater to those beliefs. Society itself becomes a place of believer’s v non-believers, producing the biggest divide since the civil war. Although this isn’t about comparisons, but rather why China is so successful, let’s dispel a few homegrown believer myths.



    The main differences between the US and China are twofold. First it’s always easier to learn from the mistakes of others, in this case the west, before going it alone and second, China learned how to bring the left and right together combining nationalism with capitalism, whilst maintaining a centralized socialist system for the benefit of those at the bottom end ofsociety. Although China is officially communist it’s in name only and can’t be ideologically communist as it promotes private wealth ownership produced by a capitalist economic system. In any society economics is everything; any ideological system will work if the money is there to fund it. Mao’s nightmare socialist (Lenin’s perpetual revolution) ideology of ‘the great leap forward’ and his ‘Cultural Revolution’ couldn’t and didn’t work. Mao’s objective was to take China from the agricultural to the industrial without capitalism. The idea was there, but using ideology instead of what really mattered – the wealth creation supplied by capitalism.

    On his death in 1976 the CCCP reversed just about every policy Mao ever made and realized private wealth enabled growth and not the State. Yet looking at the inequalities in the west, the Chinese also realized that laissez-faire (anything goes) capitalism produced an elite in a divided society, the politicians, bankers and corporations who plundered the economy for their own benefit. The answer was regulated capitalism in which private wealth creation occurred and was encouraged, but not at the expense of others within the society itself. Add to this nationalism in which the majority consensus cheered on the benefits of capitalism minus the drawbacks and China took off running. The irony of previously laughing at failed communist societies has now turned to political fear as they adopt capitalism and begin to beat the west at their own game. One and a half billion people embracing capitalism under nationalism in an industrial revolution is unstoppable. What China produced in its market based economy reforms in 1978 is currently a booming middle-class estimated to comprise 75% of urban dwellers by 2022 and legalized Christianity to the extent where if the trend continues, it’s estimated China will become the world’s most Christian nation by 2030. The results are social mobility and a consensus of hope. An unbeatable combination which helped produce America’s post-war boom.

    Shanghai, Hong Kong and Beijing. The capitalist economy which enabled this is not going to collapse anytime soon.


    Meanwhile, America and the majority west went down the road previously taken by China with its own Cultural Revolution (Obama’s identity politics) and the same ‘Great leap forward’ (Trumps America First). There were no mass graves, but it destroyed a generation just as surely as Mao did in China.


    Industrial revolutions and dominant empires occur in cycles. One day in the future as China becomes middle-class and people demand a first-world lifestyle, it too will decline as people begin to spend more than they produce and the government will push up debt to keep up the pretense of dominance as some other developing country begins its own industrial revolution. The idea that one country can produce a continuous industrial revolution is simply a belief. Likewise that China is ‘dumping.’ A developing China now exports products that are cheaper than those produced in first-world societies and which people buy because they can no longer afford the costs involved in home produced products. For those that would say China regulates capitalism, what are tariffs if not regulating free trade capitalist markets?

    The two predictions of the future view China as joining the existing world order, but conversely, realists see a disruption of US led hegemony as China begins to shape the rules to its own benefit and becomes a security threat producing increasing tensions. Human rights violations and a one party state does not distract from the achievements of having lifted an estimated 800 million people out of poverty and nearly doubled life expectancy in half a century (Investopedia). Westerners generally view the state as an intrusion, but for those in developing countries, security and an absence of poverty remains central. Democracy, opportunity and individuality count for little if the outcome is poverty for millions. China simply found the answer, at a decrease in individuality and personal freedom, but proved that the state does have both a responsibility to regulate society and an interest in how that society functions, the absence of which produces the dog-eat dog liberal fascism which plagues the west today.

    All this isn’t an attack on America or the west. It’s a pragmatic and realist view of an era in which western society is changing and how those who learned from the mistakes of the west are now putting alternative ideas into practice.
    Last edited by Refugee; 12-31-2019 at 04:21 PM.








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    Thanks for the “short” piece.
    I am tired of everyone fighting with each other. This is all by design.

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    Quote Originally Posted by texan View Post
    Thanks for the “short” piece.
    You're welcome. I have a 1000 word limit for forums. Anything under that is a 'short piece' to me.








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    Quote Originally Posted by Refugee View Post
    You're welcome. I have a 1000 word limit for forums. Anything under that is a 'short piece' to me.
    You could have simply stated that there is a big difference between an emerging market, and a mature one.

    Reading through that piece is unnecessary.

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    Quote Originally Posted by John Galt View Post
    You could have simply stated that there is a big difference between an emerging market, and a mature one.

    Reading through that piece is unnecessary.
    Double post.


    Last edited by Refugee; 12-31-2019 at 04:41 PM.








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    Quote Originally Posted by John Galt View Post
    You could have simply stated that there is a big difference between an emerging market, and a mature one.
    Reading through that piece is unnecessary.

    Yes, I could have, but if I can miss out another 100K words, a one liner would sound well, sort of a one liner thread? It’s an easy to read thread, short to the point? If there’s enough interest I’ll explain my time there. If not I’ll move onto something else and have wasted half an hour writing it and will teach me a lesson for the future.








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    Sorry but I have a whole other take on china, especially their civil rights abuses, their total lack of a justice system, their slave labor in places and the military stranglehold on their people. China is not a shining star

    American Corporations made china what they are today, they brought them from eating dogs and cats and a half starved population, they built their manufacturing infrastructure and taught them how to manufacture.

    The world and I say world because every industrialized country manufactures in China for its 15ct an hour pay scale. Most of Europe the once coveted German Quality brands say made in china. Panasonic once a pillar of japanese quality made in china. Seiko, Citizen, Casio, made in china. I could go on and on, but when the day comes the people finally overthrow the govt, or have another Lech Walesa organize the countries labor against slave wages and become Unionized, they will all leave and go find another country to exploit for dirt cheap labor and therefore more profit.
    LETS GO BRANDON
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    Quote Originally Posted by Common View Post
    Sorry but I have a whole other take on china, especially their civil rights abuses, their total lack of a justice system, their slave labor in places and the military stranglehold on their people. China is not a shining star
    American Corporations made china what they are today, they brought them from eating dogs and cats and a half starved population, they built their manufacturing infrastructure and taught them how to manufacture.
    The world and I say world because every industrialized country manufactures in China for its 15ct an hour pay scale. Most of Europe the once coveted German Quality brands say made in china. Panasonic once a pillar of japanese quality made in china. Seiko, Citizen, Casio, made in china. I could go on and on, but when the day comes the people finally overthrow the govt, or have another Lech Walesa organize the countries labor against slave wages and become Unionized, they will all leave and go find another country to exploit for dirt cheap labor and therefore more profit.
    Well...our corporations did indeed trade profits for domestic economic stability. Short term gain, coupled with an initial celebration by the consumers who could buy jeans for 80% less than in previous decades, eventually turned to crap. As Perot stated back in the day about 'that sucking sound'...our jobs fled this country with the speed of a hurricane.

    Corporations love it. They sit on record levels of cash since Obama's tenure. Operative word being 'sit'.

    Re. the quality of products made in China...that's all on the corporations. Especially Home Depot/Lowes/Walmart, who buy in such quantity that they decide what the quality will be. No matter the brand name. If you buy a Bosch tool from Scintilla in Switzerland, it's not the same as a Bosch tool purchased in H.D/Lowes. Not even close. Same with John Deere and a host of other products.

    The Chinese only do what we tell them to do.

    Unless, of course, they're knocking off our designs and selling them even cheaper.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Common View Post
    Sorry but I have a whole other take on china, especially their civil rights abuses, their total lack of a justice system, their slave labor in places and the military stranglehold on their people. China is not a shining star

    American Corporations made china what they are today, they brought them from eating dogs and cats and a half starved population, they built their manufacturing infrastructure and taught them how to manufacture.

    The world and I say world because every industrialized country manufactures in China for its 15ct an hour pay scale. Most of Europe the once coveted German Quality brands say made in china. Panasonic once a pillar of japanese quality made in china. Seiko, Citizen, Casio, made in china. I could go on and on, but when the day comes the people finally overthrow the govt, or have another Lech Walesa organize the countries labor against slave wages and become Unionized, they will all leave and go find another country to exploit for dirt cheap labor and therefore more profit.


    I’m sure there are other opinions too, but I don’t think they can be dismissed with a, ‘I think’ paragraph based on beliefs, or third party opinions. An absence of civil rights have to be explained in the context of why one ‘right’ in a certain country comes below a ‘right’ in others. The Chinese do have a justice system, so that’s not correct. China does not have a ‘slave labour’ policy, but does have private company exploitation for which the penalties are severe. Some American companies also take advantage of migrant labour. There is no doubt that China is a police state. Yet you’re right, China is not a shining star and it’s not been suggested it is one. The thread was about differences and why China is economically booming.


    American corporations didn’t make China wealthy. Populations buying affordable products that excluded trying to milk the public for every dollar it can is why China was able to sell its products and continues to do so.


    Just a few facts. The Chines eat dog meat, as do some other Asian countries. Yuk, but it’s a preferred choice of meat and not one forced by starvation. 15c is 1.4 Yuan. No one works for that. Wages are much lower than the US, but that’s because the cost of living is nowhere near that of the US. A restaurant meal would have cost me just over four dollars in China and if someone tried to rent an apartment at $1K a month they’d be laughed at. The people trying to overthrow governments is happening in the west, not China.










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