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Thread: The Extinction of Ice Age Mammals May Have Led to the Rise of Civilization

  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chris View Post
    Right, so the egalitarian ethos of the hunter-gatherer* fades away into hierarchies of power centered around family, religion, and government.


    * Boehm, Hierarchy in the Forest: The Evolution of Egalitarian Behavior
    Right. And government got more complex as society advanced.

    And now that complexity is a problem that we need to solve.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chris View Post
    The modern state,certainly, but the beginning of agriculture marks the beginning of the bureaucratic state.
    As you and Peter have both stated agri changed mankind. Not having to follow herds etc let to permanence regarding where one lived. Said " permanence" led to communities. Those communities had to form a type of governing system.

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  5. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cotton1 View Post
    As you and Peter have both stated agri changed mankind. Not having to follow herds etc let to permanence regarding where one lived. Said " permanence" led to communities. Those communities had to form a type of governing system.
    Exactly. From nomads to settlers. A game changer.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cotton1 View Post
    As you and Peter have both stated agri changed mankind. Not having to follow herds etc let to permanence regarding where one lived. Said " permanence" led to communities. Those communities had to form a type of governing system.
    Man domesticated himself.

    Sendentarism also led to the notion of property. Familial--private is recent.
    Tradition is not the worship of ashes, but the preservation of fire. ― Gustav Mahler

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    Quote Originally Posted by Peter1469 View Post
    I am always interested why people think hunter gatherer societies would be better than what we have today. We wouldn't have AC or the Internet.
    Or all the bad things. No cities, no widespread diseases. no widespread violence, No etc. You're examples assume we actually need those things. I don't think we can miss what we don't have.
    Liberals are a clear and present danger to our nation
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cotton1 View Post
    No a/c? No internet?

    Cotton, I have to give you credit. You can be on three sides of a two-sided statement.
    Liberals are a clear and present danger to our nation
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mister D View Post
    There appears to be a significant chronological gap between the adoption of agriculture and the appearance of the state.
    The gap wasn't long enough.
    Liberals are a clear and present danger to our nation
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chris View Post
    The modern state,certainly, but the beginning of agriculture marks the beginning of the bureaucratic state.
    Someone is always in charge.
    Liberals are a clear and present danger to our nation
    Pick your enemies carefully.






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    Quote Originally Posted by Captdon View Post
    Someone is always in charge.
    In the state, ancient and modern, but not with foragers where the group is in charge. Foragers might follow a leader but if he or she fails them, becomes too bossy, too self-aggrandizing, the group will take him down with shaming, ostracizing, even executing. Foragers are pretty much egalitarian.

    See Boehm's Hierarchy in the Forest: The Evolution of Egalitarian Behavior. See also many of Scott's books like The Art of Not Being Governed, and, especially for this topic, Against the Grain: A Deep History of the Earliest States. Or MacDonald's Individualism and the Western Liberal Tradition.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chris View Post
    I wouldn't argue one thing drove another, they all developed alongside each other. Agriculture requires greater planning, and that entails counting and keeping tabs of crops and animals--the beginnings of written language--allocation, rationing of food, and there's your bureaucracy, and a military to defend it, all fed by another class of workers, farmers. Yes, it took a long time and often met with failure and collapse. But agriculture "cropped up" in many places around the world back then.
    I wouldn't either. It's just a matter of creating the preconditions which I think agriculture did but it took millennia for the state to develop after the the first agricultural communities appeared. I guess one can speak to "proto-states" or a concept like that but this is lost in the mists of time. All we can know for sure is when the state as we understand the term is first attested in the archaeological record.

    Cropped up.
    Whoever criticizes capitalism, while approving immigration, whose working class is its first victim, had better shut up. Whoever criticizes immigration, while remaining silent about capitalism, should do the same.


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