Materialism and Greed are Killing Us

[Refugee]

I think you're quibbling about the definition of society.

Hunter-gathers formed societies. All the way up to the Middle Ages, there were societies, formed amd, as you even say, ordered naturally around family, religion, and shared values. Indeed, this is theory where theory is descriptive, as in science.

What there was not was civil society, which came about by social contract theory. Theory where theory is prescriptive.



@ https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/...nalCode=cele20

But I'm not interested in semantics, so the floor is all yours.

Yes, I am. I’m saying there was never a natural state of individual freedom; that control has always existed in a group. Societies have existed for thousands of years and what I’m saying is that despite people organizing the structure of society, there was always top down control. What we class as civil today was obviously not the same level of civil in previous societies, but they certainly had rules and values and the consequences of breaking those rules was almost certain death.

So in that sense yes, there was a social contract. Even a few hundred years ago you could have been burned at the stake for not conforming to the dominant religious practice and swearing allegiance to a Monarch in return for protection was mandatory. In the English peasant’s revolt of the 14th century, the ringleaders were all put to death because they tried to break the social contract order of hierarchy. So it’s not semantics or theory, it’s history.

[Chris]

Yes, I am. I’m saying there was never a natural state of individual freedom; that control has always existed in a group. Societies have existed for thousands of years and what I’m saying is that despite people organizing the structure of society, there was always top down control. What we class as civil today was obviously not the same level of civil in previous societies, but they certainly had rules and values and the consequences of breaking those rules was almost certain death.

So in that sense yes, there was a social contract. Even a few hundred years ago you could have been burned at the stake for not conforming to the dominant religious practice and swearing allegiance to a Monarch in return for protection was mandatory. In the English peasant’s revolt of the 14th century, the ringleaders were all put to death because they tried to break the social contract order of hierarchy. So it’s not semantics or theory, it’s history.

I’m saying there was never a natural state of individual freedom; that control has always existed in a group.

The problem is I'm not saying there is; in fact, I'm saying the opposite.

But you seem to be saying hierarchical top-down control is required, in short, civil society; whereas I'm saying most of human existence has been egalitarian bottom-up control, in short, natural society. Indeed, it is only in the last thousands of years that top-down control has become prevalent. As I pointed out in the other thread, we have 300000 years egalitarian, 10000 years transition, 300 years statism.

[Refugee]

The problem is I'm not saying there is; in fact, I'm saying the opposite.

But you seem to be saying hierarchical top-down control is required, in short, civil society; whereas I'm saying most of human existence has been egalitarian bottom-up control, in short, natural society. Indeed, it is only in the last thousands of years that top-down control has become prevalent. As I pointed out in the other thread, we have 300000 years egalitarian, 10000 years transition, 300 years statism.

I’m not just saying it’s required, what I’m saying it’s always been like that. A ‘natural society’, whatever natural is, has never been egalitarian. As long as societies, groups of people coming together, have existed, there has never been equality, or a bottom up approach.

[Chris]

I’m not just saying it’s required, what I’m saying it’s always been like that. A ‘natural society’, whatever natural is, has never been egalitarian. As long as societies, groups of people coming together, have existed, there has never been equality, or a bottom up approach.

Cite some anthropological sources that support your opinion.

I have cited several.

[Refugee]

Cite some anthropological sources that support your opinion.

I have cited several.

Citing sources is not a debate Chris, it’s just finding links on google that support a personal opinion. I get my worldview on the construction of societies from history. There has never been an egalitarian society. What you have to do if you’re advancing the argument that there are is point me to these societies. So far you’ve told me that the hunter gather period extended to the Middle-Ages and that for most of history societies have been ruled bottom up. From chieftains or tribal leaders to monarchies and presidents, there have always been elites in every society.

Equally, you could site sources that say the earth was created 10K years ago, or that it’s flat. Science, or in our case history, simply disproves it.

[Chris]

Citing sources is not a debate Chris, it’s just finding links on google that support a personal opinion. I get my worldview on the construction of societies from history. There has never been an egalitarian society. What you have to do if you’re advancing the argument that there are is point me to these societies. So far you’ve told me that the hunter gather period extended to the Middle-Ages and that for most of history societies have been ruled bottom up. From chieftains or tribal leaders to monarchies and presidents, there have always been elites in every society.

Equally, you could site sources that say the earth was created 10K years ago, or that it’s flat. Science, or in our case history, simply disproves it.

Well, if you cited some sources then I could go read them and maybe learn something because all the anthropology I've read supports egalitarianism as the natural state of man.

[Refugee]

Well, if you cited some sources then I could go read them and maybe learn something because all the anthropology I've read supports egalitarianism as the natural state of man.

If you don’t know social history it’s a bit too late to start now and a forum is not the best place to begin a first year introduction to sociology. Egalitarianism has always been the primary goal of most theorists; how to construct a perfect society which benefits everybody, but it has never worked. You’re citing the same classical theorists and philosophers who proposed those theories.

The western classical theorists didn’t just up and start philosophizing about the way societies should run, they were a reaction to the changes from the agricultural to the industrial. The Magna Carta of 1215 wasn’t about egalitarianism, it was about limiting the absolute rule of Monarchs. Further back you have the Roman Empire, further back the rise of the Chinese Empire dynasties around 221BC and even further the Egyptian Empire of around 3000BC … None of these were egalitarian.

The natural state of man has always been servitude. You pay the same ‘taxes’ to the same kind of people as you would have thousands of years ago and the elite still make the law you live by. The ideal that once upon a time there were societies where people lived independently from each other sans hunger and wars and all were equal in status is a myth.

[Chris]

If you don’t know social history it’s a bit too late to start now and a forum is not the best place to begin a first year introduction to sociology. Egalitarianism has always been the primary goal of most theorists; how to construct a perfect society which benefits everybody, but it has never worked. You’re citing the same classical theorists and philosophers who proposed those theories.

The western classical theorists didn’t just up and start philosophizing about the way societies should run, they were a reaction to the changes from the agricultural to the industrial. The Magna Carta of 1215 wasn’t about egalitarianism, it was about limiting the absolute rule of Monarchs. Further back you have the Roman Empire, further back the rise of the Chinese Empire dynasties around 221BC and even further the Egyptian Empire of around 3000BC … None of these were egalitarian.

The natural state of man has always been servitude. You pay the same ‘taxes’ to the same kind of people as you would have thousands of years ago and the elite still make the law you live by. The ideal that once upon a time there were societies where people lived independently from each other sans hunger and wars and all were equal in status is a myth.

Lordy, I have cited enough anthropologists to support my contention that egalitarianism is the natural state of man, from hunter-gatherers on to today.

I'm asking you for sources because you have ideas that run counter to everything I've ever read. I'm asking by way of acknowledging I haven't read everything and could learn more by reading more...provided you could provide even one scant source to back you up.

No, not one of my sources is a classical theorist or philosopher. I have cited only modern empirical anthropological work.

I see you've gone back 3000 years. Wow. Human beings have existed over 300,000 years, which you ignore.

I see you name a handful of ancient hierarchical empires. Wow. You ignore many more egalitarian societies past and present.




And with that, I walk away from this.

[Refugee]

Lordy, I have cited enough anthropologists to support my contention that egalitarianism is the natural state of man, from hunter-gatherers on to today.

I'm asking you for sources because you have ideas that run counter to everything I've ever read. I'm asking by way of acknowledging I haven't read everything and could learn more by reading more...provided you could provide even one scant source to back you up.

No, not one of my sources is a classical theorist or philosopher. I have cited only modern empirical anthropological work.

I see you've gone back 3000 years. Wow. Human beings have existed over 300,000 years, which you ignore.

I see you name a handful of ancient hierarchical empires. Wow. You ignore many more egalitarian societies past and present.




And with that, I walk away from this.

What you’re stating are not facts Chris, they’re theories. I could quote you whole sections of Marxist theory with links, but it wasn’t based on facts. You have to begin with a premise that societies are hierarchal and then state those that weren’t, not give links to theories and demand someone to disprove something that has always existed.

The way to do it is a degree in sociology or the social sciences. That will teach you the basic isms and social history. After a few years you’ll develop a world view and be able to test that against history. Having done that, you won’t need links or what someone else said as ‘evidence’ because you won't need links, you'll know and be able to explain.

Egalitarianism (equality) doesn’t exist and so can’t be a ‘natural’ state. Never mind about what someone else said, name me an egalitarian society today? OK, name me an egalitarian society in the past? How far back from the first Egyptian empire of thousands of years ago do you want to go for evidence that no society is or was egalitarian?

Certainly study, but links are a lazy way of doing it.

[stjames1_53]

We like to have three vehicles, in case one needs some shop time. When two broke down, I had to replace one of them, For the first time in over 15 years, we had to get a loan. It is our only monthly payment.
I repaired one of the cars, but it took a bit of time. I own a '97 jeep 4x4 as we need it for winter time driving. Living out in the sticks has its own requirements, so I dropped a used engine in the jeep, I worked all summer to get the money up. For the price of that engine, it was cheaper than buying another "newer" vehicle. The one we purchased is a '17 jeep and fixed mine.
We buy or trade for goods out here. I traded a handmade custom chest to pay for a guy to come and hook up my wood burner in the garage. He had it appraised and brought back a thousand dollars claiming the chest was worth far more than the install. He still made out like a bandit, but I got what I wanted without digging into our monetary resources. Everyone is happy.
There is no keeping up with the Jones's out here. We live too far apart.