User Tag List

+ Reply to Thread
Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 10 of 19

Thread: And he's outta there

  1. #1
    Points: 77,401, Level: 67
    Level completed: 85%, Points required for next Level: 349
    Overall activity: 49.0%
    Achievements:
    Tagger First ClassSocial50000 Experience PointsVeteran
    stjames1_53's Avatar Senior Member
    Karma
    43725
    Join Date
    Apr 2016
    Posts
    28,483
    Points
    77,401
    Level
    67
    Thanks Given
    51,546
    Thanked 14,743x in 10,674 Posts
    Mentioned
    103 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    And he's outta there

    Acting Navy secretary resigns after criticizing ousted captain who raised alarm on outbreak
    Courtney Kube and Mosheh Gains and Rich Schapiro

    Acting Navy Secretary Thomas Modly has resigned his post, two defense officials said, a day after he criticized and then apologized to an ousted captain who raised concerns about a coronavirus outbreak on his aircraft carrier.
    Modly made the offer during a Tuesday morning conversation with Defense Secretary Mark Esper, the officials said. Esper accepted his resignation and has selected Under Secretary of the Army James McPherson to replace Modly as acting Navy secretary, according to the officials.
    The revelation comes after Modly’s stinging remarks about Capt. Brett Crozier, broadcast over the loudspeakers on the USS Theodore Roosevelt on Monday, drew criticism from lawmakers and disapproval from President Donald Trump.
    The controversy began last week when Crozier, the commanding officer of the Theodore Roosevelt, sent a strongly-worded memo to a broad array of Navy officials begging for help amid a COVID-19 outbreak on the ship. The memo leaked to the press and generated a series of headlines.
    Crozier was relieved of his command last Thursday. Modly said at the time he made the decision because Crozier went outside the chain of command and exposed sensitive information.

    Video emerged a day later showing throngs of Theodore Roosevelt crew members cheering for Crozier as he walked off the ship.
    Modly traveled to Guam on Monday and delivered a speech to the sailor calling Crozier either “stupid or naive” for writing the memo and accusing him of a “betrayal of trust.”
    “If he didn’t think, in my opinion, that this information wasn’t going to get out into the public, in this day and information age that we live in, then he was either A, too naive or too stupid to be a commanding officer of a ship like this,” Modly said.
    Modly, in a statement released after a purported transcript of the remarks was reported by several news outlets, didn’t back down.
    “I stand by every word I said,” the statement read.

    But several hours later, after Trump voiced support for Crozier, Modly released a new statement apologizing for his remarks.
    "Let me be clear, I do not think Captain Brett Crozier is naïve nor stupid," Modly said. "I think, and always believed him to be the opposite."
    Kenneth Braithwaite, the U.S ambassador to Norway, was formally nominated to replace Modly but he is still awaiting Senate confirmation.

    http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politi...id=mailsignout

    oh, so now he's not naïve and stupid after saying that you would standby what he said earlier, which was naïve and stupid.
    I served on a bird farm. there is no such thing as a six foot safe distance. It's a lot like a submarine. Once you're under way, there's no place to go and it's packed wall to wall with other humans. Department coops that house 50-60 living breathing bodies. 30 or less if you are in port, anywhere from 3800 to 5000 men aboard while at asea.
    When you went to condition yellow, the ship used closed air conditioning systems ship wide. Recirc only.
    Now I don't know about the Roosevelt, but battle stations dictate a sealed system on board on the Ranger and that's probably true for the newer bird farms. Nukes can cruise for-almost-ever, but you still need bodies to steer the damned thing.
    Let's guarantee that every sailor gets it and maybe ordered to stay on post.
    You'd have to scorch the Teddy R from stem to stern to clean it up.
    For waltky: http://quakes.globalincidentmap.com/
    "The Nation that makes a great distinction between its scholars and its warriors will have its thinking done by cowards and its fighting done by fools."
    - Thucydides

    "Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote" B. Franklin
    Igitur qui desiderat pacem, praeparet bellum

  2. The Following User Says Thank You to stjames1_53 For This Useful Post:

    Retirednsmilin308 (04-08-2020)

  3. #2
    Points: 44,825, Level: 51
    Level completed: 75%, Points required for next Level: 425
    Overall activity: 17.0%
    Achievements:
    50000 Experience PointsVeteran
    Cletus's Avatar Senior Member
    Karma
    182893
    Join Date
    Jun 2015
    Posts
    19,740
    Points
    44,825
    Level
    51
    Thanks Given
    75
    Thanked 14,578x in 8,955 Posts
    Mentioned
    208 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    What we have here is a case of two people doing something stupid. The Captain of the Roosevelt was wrong in so many ways, relieving him was absolutely the right thing to do.

    The SecNav screwed up when he publicly said what a whole lot of people were thinking. It was inappropriate to voice his personal opinion to the crew of the Roosevelt.
    "All laws which are repugnant to the Constitution are null and void." Marbury Vs. Madison, 5 US (2 Cranch) 137, 174, 176, (1803). "Where rights secured by the Constitution are involved, there can be no rule making or legislation which would abrogate them." Miranda Vs. Arizona, 384 US 436 p. 491.

  4. The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to Cletus For This Useful Post:

    Cannons Front (04-08-2020),komobu (04-08-2020),Peter1469 (04-07-2020)

  5. #3
    Points: 77,401, Level: 67
    Level completed: 85%, Points required for next Level: 349
    Overall activity: 49.0%
    Achievements:
    Tagger First ClassSocial50000 Experience PointsVeteran
    stjames1_53's Avatar Senior Member
    Karma
    43725
    Join Date
    Apr 2016
    Posts
    28,483
    Points
    77,401
    Level
    67
    Thanks Given
    51,546
    Thanked 14,743x in 10,674 Posts
    Mentioned
    103 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by Cletus View Post
    What we have here is a case of two people doing something stupid. The Captain of the Roosevelt was wrong in so many ways, relieving him was absolutely the right thing to do.

    The SecNav screwed up when he publicly said what a whole lot of people were thinking. It was inappropriate to voice his personal opinion to the crew of the Roosevelt.
    We agree on the second portion, but I kind of have to take issue with declaring Crozier and unfit captain. We don't know who he contacted before breaking ranks. I think that will have be seen if such steps were taken.
    He doesn't sound like the kind of commander that would violate the chain of command. Either way, he had to balance the fighting capabilities of his command with the ability to do so. If the crew were down, his ship would be a vessel of sick people.
    We've seen how fast it burns through our land population. Now imagine the weight of that decision with a metal hollow shell full of people with no where to go, and most certainly not enough bed space for those that would have needed it badly.
    I say. let's see what the investigation brings.
    Wherever else, you know that captain has big balls and highly respected by his crew. You cannot order that kind of loyalty.
    Note added:
    You don't get to captain a nuclear aircraft carrier just because...........
    Last edited by stjames1_53; 04-07-2020 at 06:10 PM. Reason: added note:
    For waltky: http://quakes.globalincidentmap.com/
    "The Nation that makes a great distinction between its scholars and its warriors will have its thinking done by cowards and its fighting done by fools."
    - Thucydides

    "Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote" B. Franklin
    Igitur qui desiderat pacem, praeparet bellum

  6. The Following User Says Thank You to stjames1_53 For This Useful Post:

    Retirednsmilin308 (04-08-2020)

  7. #4
    Points: 14,213, Level: 28
    Level completed: 74%, Points required for next Level: 237
    Overall activity: 83.0%
    Achievements:
    3 months registered10000 Experience Points
    carolina73's Avatar Senior Member
    Karma
    3618
    Join Date
    Sep 2019
    Posts
    5,368
    Points
    14,213
    Level
    28
    Thanks Given
    2,706
    Thanked 3,609x in 2,514 Posts
    Mentioned
    16 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Do we really know what the Captain did prior to sending the memo?
    Did he really use all normal remedies?
    The Navy is not always upfront with information for many reasons that vary in what outsiders consider to be valid.

  8. The Following User Says Thank You to carolina73 For This Useful Post:

    stjames1_53 (04-07-2020)

  9. #5
    Points: 77,401, Level: 67
    Level completed: 85%, Points required for next Level: 349
    Overall activity: 49.0%
    Achievements:
    Tagger First ClassSocial50000 Experience PointsVeteran
    stjames1_53's Avatar Senior Member
    Karma
    43725
    Join Date
    Apr 2016
    Posts
    28,483
    Points
    77,401
    Level
    67
    Thanks Given
    51,546
    Thanked 14,743x in 10,674 Posts
    Mentioned
    103 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by carolina73 View Post
    Do we really know what the Captain did prior to sending the memo?
    Did he really use all normal remedies?
    The Navy is not always upfront with information for many reasons that vary in what outsiders consider to be valid.
    That was my point. There's more to this, I suspect. A captain of a nuclear powered aircraft carrier doesn't get that position without a great deal of work and day in day out working with the chains of command. It is engrained in them.
    For waltky: http://quakes.globalincidentmap.com/
    "The Nation that makes a great distinction between its scholars and its warriors will have its thinking done by cowards and its fighting done by fools."
    - Thucydides

    "Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote" B. Franklin
    Igitur qui desiderat pacem, praeparet bellum

  10. #6
    Points: 44,825, Level: 51
    Level completed: 75%, Points required for next Level: 425
    Overall activity: 17.0%
    Achievements:
    50000 Experience PointsVeteran
    Cletus's Avatar Senior Member
    Karma
    182893
    Join Date
    Jun 2015
    Posts
    19,740
    Points
    44,825
    Level
    51
    Thanks Given
    75
    Thanked 14,578x in 8,955 Posts
    Mentioned
    208 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by stjames1_53 View Post
    That was my point. There's more to this, I suspect. A captain of a nuclear powered aircraft carrier doesn't get that position without a great deal of work and day in day out working with the chains of command. It is engrained in them.
    I don't think it matters. Whether he addressed the issue through the proper channels first is not really relevant. It doesn't appear he did, but even if he did, if he didn't get the results he felt he should have, his job was to bite the bullet and carry out his orders. When he went public, he screwed the pooch big time.

    He left the Navy no choice but to relieve him of his command.
    "All laws which are repugnant to the Constitution are null and void." Marbury Vs. Madison, 5 US (2 Cranch) 137, 174, 176, (1803). "Where rights secured by the Constitution are involved, there can be no rule making or legislation which would abrogate them." Miranda Vs. Arizona, 384 US 436 p. 491.

  11. #7
    Points: 77,401, Level: 67
    Level completed: 85%, Points required for next Level: 349
    Overall activity: 49.0%
    Achievements:
    Tagger First ClassSocial50000 Experience PointsVeteran
    stjames1_53's Avatar Senior Member
    Karma
    43725
    Join Date
    Apr 2016
    Posts
    28,483
    Points
    77,401
    Level
    67
    Thanks Given
    51,546
    Thanked 14,743x in 10,674 Posts
    Mentioned
    103 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by Cletus View Post
    I don't think it matters. Whether he addressed the issue through the proper channels first is not really relevant. It doesn't appear he did, but even if he did, if he didn't get the results he felt he should have, his job was to bite the bullet and carry out his orders. When he went public, he screwed the pooch big time.

    He left the Navy no choice but to relieve him of his command.
    If he thought his command was in dire straights and was going to be unable to function correctly, and he went through proper channels and was ignored, then he was correct in disobeying lawful orders.
    You do have that option in the military, or at least you did when I was in.
    That's why an investigation needs to go forward. IF he was issued unlawful orders, then he can, in good conscience, refuse them.
    We also need to know who leaked the memo. Don't stand up and start pointing fingers because you know as much about this as I.
    But just to clarify, I did the rest of my duty on an aircraft carrier. USS Ranger CVA-61 from late '71-mid '75.
    Now the other side of the coin. If had had obeyed orders and his ship had to be towed back to port, he would have lost his captaincy just as fast.
    For waltky: http://quakes.globalincidentmap.com/
    "The Nation that makes a great distinction between its scholars and its warriors will have its thinking done by cowards and its fighting done by fools."
    - Thucydides

    "Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote" B. Franklin
    Igitur qui desiderat pacem, praeparet bellum

  12. #8
    Points: 44,825, Level: 51
    Level completed: 75%, Points required for next Level: 425
    Overall activity: 17.0%
    Achievements:
    50000 Experience PointsVeteran
    Cletus's Avatar Senior Member
    Karma
    182893
    Join Date
    Jun 2015
    Posts
    19,740
    Points
    44,825
    Level
    51
    Thanks Given
    75
    Thanked 14,578x in 8,955 Posts
    Mentioned
    208 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by stjames1_53 View Post
    If he thought his command was in dire straights and was going to be unable to function correctly, and he went through proper channels and was ignored, then he was correct in disobeying lawful orders.
    You do have that option in the military, or at least you did when I was in.
    Sure, but you are not correct in going public with it. THAT is where he screwed up.
    That's why an investigation needs to go forward. IF he was issued unlawful orders, then he can, in good conscience, refuse them.
    We also need to know who leaked the memo. Don't stand up and start pointing fingers because you know as much about this as I.
    It wasn't a memo. It was a 4 page letter sent to multiple sources in the clear. In it, he called for a "political solution". He intended for it to go public.
    "All laws which are repugnant to the Constitution are null and void." Marbury Vs. Madison, 5 US (2 Cranch) 137, 174, 176, (1803). "Where rights secured by the Constitution are involved, there can be no rule making or legislation which would abrogate them." Miranda Vs. Arizona, 384 US 436 p. 491.

  13. #9
    Points: 1,247, Level: 7
    Level completed: 99%, Points required for next Level: 3
    Overall activity: 1.0%
    Achievements:
    3 months registered1000 Experience Points
    goodpen's Avatar Senior Member
    Karma
    170
    Join Date
    Nov 2019
    Posts
    216
    Points
    1,247
    Level
    7
    Thanks Given
    77
    Thanked 160x in 106 Posts
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    As a side note...our present media is much to quick to post anything they see or hear if it might be a headline. There was a time when even the media considered....loose lips, sink ships.

  14. #10
    Points: 686, Level: 5
    Level completed: 68%, Points required for next Level: 64
    Overall activity: 0%
    Achievements:
    3 months registered500 Experience Points
    komobu's Avatar Member
    Karma
    103
    Join Date
    Dec 2019
    Posts
    107
    Points
    686
    Level
    5
    Thanks Given
    139
    Thanked 93x in 53 Posts
    Mentioned
    1 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    I'm with @Cletus. There were many different ways to handle this crisis. To me it was absolutely gross misconduct to send an email on the operational readiness of his ship to 30 people over a gmail account. Hello Hillary Clinton! He should have known that as soon as he sent that email to 30 people over a gmail acct he was through. Any adversary would love to attack a carrier. Now those same adversaries know he doesnt have enough personnel to man his threat deterrent systems or his battle stations. Further, if he loved his crew so much, he should have known that he can only fall on his sword once and then he wouldnt have been there to look out for them.

    I didnt think the Navy would put mediocre people in command of carriers. I always thought they would put the most competent in command of them with a demonstrated ability to think clear and logical in a time of crisis. This guy sure blew that theory out of the water.

    If he really wanted to look out for his crew, he should have jumped on one of his own aircraft and flew to DC. He could have told the brass personally that if they didnt fix this he was going to resign, and make his resignation and reasons there of public. That would have forced the brass to react without compromising operational security. Then he would have been a true hero.

    Having said all that about the cdr, the Sec Nav should have resigned or been fired. A Sec Nav shouldnt have jumped on a plane and flew 7k miles to Guam to justify his position to a crew and berate them. His actions were rediculous.

  15. The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to komobu For This Useful Post:

    Cannons Front (04-08-2020),Cletus (04-08-2020),Peter1469 (04-08-2020)

+ Reply to Thread

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts

Single Sign On provided by vBSSO