Racism and Systematic Racism: Safety vs MMC

[Safety]

Well he isn't alone. What sentence now confuses you. As its quite clear you are confused with the word systemic.

The systemic racism in sentencing. It’s the next step after showing the systemic racism from the police. Why would I have to explain that?

[Safety]

More for you to learn about Safety.

Much more!

Awww, cute videos. Is that going to be your argument style moving forward?

[MMC]

Awww, cute videos. Is that going to be your argument style moving forward?

Oh.....so now you are confused as to using all material to back my play? Imagine that. Btw, its not the videos. Its the men and the realities that they make their points on.

[Safety]

Oh.....so now you are confused as to using all material to back my play? Imagine that. Btw, its not the videos. Its the men and the realities that they make their points on.

Oh, more appeals to authority?

Ok, here you go...

Now, once again your entire argument has been rendered null and void. Ready to move on to sentencing disparities between races?

[MMC]

Oh, more appeals to authority?

Ok, here you go...

Now, once again your entire argument has been rendered null and void. Ready to move on to sentencing disparities between races?

Now that is funny.....so you now come with an appeal to authority. Imagine that.


Uhm you have one cop that mentions Systemic racism. Passing by another cop? So that means there is systemic racism? You will need to do better than that.

Then you have a cop talking about there needs to be systemic change. Says nothing about systemic racism. Your two cops talked about change coming down from the top. None of it discusses systemic racism. So no your argument doesn't even come close to rendering my argument null and void. Even Gayle King says we discussed many things. Flaws in the System and change. But they started with George Floyd. Nothing about Systemic racism. lol

I can throw up videos of cops saying there is no systemic racism. But then they don't discuss why.


You still haven't gotten past Sowell and Elder nor any of the other studies, and research. Plus you aren't even close to discussing anything Webb and Joe Hicks pointed too.


It was a meh try at best. You will need to put in much more effort than posting a video of some cops and then just say that makes my argument null and void. Take a longer cigarette break maybe another full day. Then see is you can find something that backs your play.

[Safety]

Now that is funny.....so you now come with an appeal to authority. Imagine that.


Uhm you have one cop that mentions Systemic racism. Passing by another cop? So that means there is systemic racism? You will need to do better than that.

Then you have a cop talking about there needs to be systemic change. Says nothing about systemic racism. Your two cops talked about change coming down from the top. None of it discusses systemic racism. So no your argument doesn't even come close to rendering my argument null and void. Even Gayle King says we discussed many things. Flaws in the System and change. But they started with George Floyd. Nothing about Systemic racism. lol

I can throw up videos of cops saying there is no systemic racism. But then they don't discuss why.


You still haven't gotten past Sowell and Elder nor any of the other studies, and research. Plus you aren't even close to discussing anything Webb and Joe Hicks pointed too.


It was a meh try at best. You will need to put in much more effort than posting a video of some cops and then just say that makes my argument null and void. Take a longer cigarette break maybe another full day. Then see is you can find something that backs your play.

You have presented nothing but appeals to authority in this thread, now you want to balk at me returning the favor? You opened that door counselor. Laughable at best.

The video shows four police chiefs all agreeing that systemic racism is an issue with law enforcement, so no matter how many examples you provide, it won’t erase that four police chiefs believe systemic racism exists in law enforcement.

[MMC]

You have presented nothing but appeals to authority in this thread, now you want to balk at me returning the favor? You opened that door counselor. Laughable at best.

The video shows four police chiefs all agreeing that systemic racism is an issue with law enforcement, so no matter how many examples you provide, it won’t erase that four police chiefs believe systemic racism exists in law enforcement.

And.....that is what you do as well. So you aren't saying anything when trying to play that headgame. Other than the fact that you don't have much of anything to back your argument.

You formulate a conclusion and then seek out confirmation while ignoring disconfirmation. That's cherry picking. One Chief mention Systemic Racism. Yet doesn't correlate racism to any of the changes they talked about. None of them do.


Once again you forget racism is intentional and you forget exactly what it is they are talking about. Forgetting that the concept comes from the definition.


Rooted in this foundation, systemic racism today is composed of intersecting, overlapping, and codependent racist institutions, policies, practices, ideas, and behaviors.....snip~


Systemic refers to something that affects an entire system. In this sense it is complete.....snip~


Criminal Behavior, Not Racism, Explains ‘Racial Disparities’ in Crime Stats


But aren’t blacks routinely “racially profiled” by cops? Not according to the Police-Public Contact Survey. Produced every three years by the Department of Justice’s Bureau of Justice Statistics, the survey asks more than 60,000 people about their interactions with the police. It asks respondents’ to provide age, race and gender. It asks them whether they had any contact with the police in the last year; what was the experience like; how were your treated; was there a use of force and so on. Turns out, according to a September 2017 National Review article, black men and white men are about equally likely to have a contact with a cop in a given year. As to multiple contacts, defined as three or more with the police in a given year, 1.5 percent of blacks vs. 1.2 percent of whites fall in that category. Not much difference.



A reasonable discussion about blacks and police practices cannot take place without acknowledging the disproportion amount of crime committed by blacks. According to the Department of Justice’s “Felony Defendants in Large Urban Counties, 2009,” in the country’s 75 largest counties, blacks committed 62 percent of robberies, 45 percent of assaults and accounted for 57 percent of murder defendants.....snip~

Additionally, 61 percent of black voters support

“‘summonses or make arrests’ in their neighborhood for quality-of-life offenses,”

once again suggesting that there is no evidence of systemic racism in policing......snip~

https://www.dailywire.com/news/7-sta...-aaron-bandler

[Safety]

And.....that is what you do as well. So you aren't saying anything when trying to play that headgame. Other than the fact that you don't have much of anything to back your argument.

You formulate a conclusion and then seek out confirmation while ignoring disconfirmation. That's cherry picking. One Chief mention Systemic Racism. Yet doesn't correlate racism to any of the changes they talked about. None of them do.


Once again you forget racism is intentional and you forget exactly what it is they are talking about. Forgetting that the concept comes from the definition.


Rooted in this foundation, systemic racism today is composed of intersecting, overlapping, and codependent racist institutions, policies, practices, ideas, and behaviors.....snip~


Systemic refers to something that affects an entire system. In this sense it is complete.....snip~


Criminal Behavior, Not Racism, Explains ‘Racial Disparities’ in Crime Stats


But aren’t blacks routinely “racially profiled” by cops? Not according to the Police-Public Contact Survey. Produced every three years by the Department of Justice’s Bureau of Justice Statistics, the survey asks more than 60,000 people about their interactions with the police. It asks respondents’ to provide age, race and gender. It asks them whether they had any contact with the police in the last year; what was the experience like; how were your treated; was there a use of force and so on. Turns out, according to a September 2017 National Review article, black men and white men are about equally likely to have a contact with a cop in a given year. As to multiple contacts, defined as three or more with the police in a given year, 1.5 percent of blacks vs. 1.2 percent of whites fall in that category. Not much difference.



A reasonable discussion about blacks and police practices cannot take place without acknowledging the disproportion amount of crime committed by blacks. According to the Department of Justice’s “Felony Defendants in Large Urban Counties, 2009,” in the country’s 75 largest counties, blacks committed 62 percent of robberies, 45 percent of assaults and accounted for 57 percent of murder defendants.....snip~

Additionally, 61 percent of black voters support

“‘summonses or make arrests’ in their neighborhood for quality-of-life offenses,”

once again suggesting that there is no evidence of systemic racism in policing......snip~

https://www.dailywire.com/news/7-sta...-aaron-bandler

No, you WANT systemic racism to include everything so that you can find a podunk little town with no black people and say "see there isn't racism here, therefore there can't be systemic racism". That is the reason you rely so heavily on people like Sowell, Elder, et. al. to speak for you, because when challenged on debating in your own words, you fail tremendously. I do not need to formulate a conclusion, because it is without a doubt accepted understanding that systemic racism is present in law enforcement. Period.

Now, why do you think we also see systemic racism in the sentencing disparites handed out by judges when contrasting white people vs black people? Take note, any suggestion of "prior criminal record or socioeconomic status" has already been neutralized. We are not talking about rich white people vs poor black people, or no previous criminal record vs a previous criminal record.

[MMC]

No, you WANT systemic racism to include everything so that you can find a podunk little town with no black people and say "see there isn't racism here, therefore there can't be systemic racism". That is the reason you rely so heavily on people like Sowell, Elder, et. al. to speak for you, because when challenged on debating in your own words, you fail tremendously. I do not need to formulate a conclusion, because it is without a doubt accepted understanding that systemic racism is present in law enforcement. Period.

Now, why do you think we also see systemic racism in the sentencing disparites handed out by judges when contrasting white people vs black people? Take note, any suggestion of "prior criminal record or socioeconomic status" has already been neutralized. We are not talking about rich white people vs poor black people, or no previous criminal record vs a previous criminal record.

Wrong again....its not me that wants Systemic racism to include everything. That is what Experts defined Systemic racism to be. Including the lefts.....who used a definition and then came up with a Social Theory. Oh now a logical fallacy about some small Podunk town with no blacks. Yet I have used Major urban cities with a police Dept being damn near half of minorities or has more than half being minorities. Which pointing out Chiefs of Police being a minority. Or a Police commissioner being minority. Which I didn't even bring in a Mayor and or Alderman being minorities. Oh and I Use Sowell, Elder and others who have been saying the same thing for years. Were saying it first and because your leftist heroes and race baiters wont take them on. Because they use stats and I am saying the same thing they are. Leaving it in their own words wherein you can't play off how I say something and can't play with terminology.

You don't need to formulate a conclusion. Because you don't have proof that there is Systemic Racism present in Law Enforcement. At best you have a disparity and that there are a few cops that are racists. Period! There is no Systemic racism in Law Enforcement.

Nice try.....Rich White people and Po Black people. Uhm that isn't about race. That is about Class. Just like Rich white people vs Poor white people. Rich White people vs Poor Latino People. I noticed you didn't include Rich criminals vs any others either.


On Racial Bias in Criminal Sentencing

August 10, 2019November 4, 2019

Sometimes, people say things like “Black Americans get harsher criminal sentences than white Americans even when race is the only thing differentiating the black and white defendants”. This fact is then pointed to as evidence that racial bias is at work in the American criminal justice system, and American society at large. In this post, I will argue that the available empirical research does not justify this claim and that, in fact, the empirical evidence more favors the view that there is no racial bias in criminal sentencing.


Pre-trial Outcomes
With respect to pre-trial outcomes, Wu (2016) meta-analyzed 36 studies on the effect that race has on the probability that a defendant would be fully charged. Wu argues that these pre-trial decisions are very importance since 80% of state cases and 90% of federal cases never actually go to trial. Wu finds that black defendants are 9% more likely than white defendants to be charged.


In the moderator analysis, Wu produces several interesting findings. First, this effect is only found in the South. This finding is consistent with out intuitions about how racism is distributed across America. However, several other findings from the moderator analysis cast doubt on the idea that this meta-analysis is detecting real bias.


First, the strength of this effect has not changed with time contrary to what we might expect if racial animus was its cause.
Second, it was found that controlling for crime type and criminal history actually increased the size of this effect, a finding that is hard to make any sense of.
Thirdly, and most importantly, no bias was found in studies that reported their standard error. The standard error is a statistic needed to put an result into this meta-analysis. Some studies reported them and others did not. When the standard error was not reported, Wu estimated what the standard error probably was. As Wu writes “Estimated standard errors likely overestimated or underestimated the effect of race and ethnicity on prosecutorial outcomes.”


Post-trial Outcomes
Turning to post-trial decisions, Mitchell (2005) conducted a meta-analysis in which various sentencing outcomes were considered (e.g. prison vs no prison, sentence length, etc.) and converted to a common statistical measure. The results were then divided into those concerning state sentencing and federal sentencing.


With respect to state crimes, black Americans were 28% more likely than white Americans to receive a harsh sentence. However, this gap was reduced to 14% in studies that controlled for things like criminal history and crime type. There was also evidence that studies finding larger effects were more likely to be published since the elevated risk in unpublished studies was only 14% even before applying any controls.


For these findings to be compelling, we would need to see a meta-analysis which both controls for publication bias and only includes studies that control for obvious differences in crime type and criminal history. Since both of these moves seem to reduce the significance of the effect, it is remains unknown whether the result would remain statistically, or practically, significant if both moves were done at once. Given this, until a better meta-analysis is conducted, I don’t think we can form confident views about what this research is actually finding.


Moreover, research on both pre and post trial outcomes suffer from a more fundamental flaw which is that they omit many variables which might differ between black and white criminals and which might explain their differing legal outcomes.


For instance, this research fails to control for differences in the way in which crimes were carried out within the same crime type. As an example, assaults can differ both in their degree of seriousness and in the motives that caused them. These variables might in-turn differ, on average, between black and white criminals in a way that leads to white criminals receiving preferable legal outcomes.


Another omitted variable is courtroom behavior. How criminals act in a courtroom, and especially how remorseful they seem, might influence their sentencing. Yet, this is uncontrolled for in studies on racial bias.


Black Judges and Black Lawyers
Another line of evidence worth mentioning concerns research on racial bias among black judges and black lawyers. These studies offer more evidence that racial bias is not at play in the criminal justice system.


The fact that the supposed racial bias seen among white judges is also found among black judges strengthens the case that this so called “bias” is actually due to variables which differ between black and white criminals but which are omitted from the standard research literature. Of course, it is possible that black judges are racist against black people to the exact same degree that white judges are, but there is no empirical evidence suggesting that this is so, and in the absence of evidence we should assume this is false since black people in general do not exhibit an anti-black bias.



Conclusion

In summary, research on pre-trial outcomes does not seem to favor the view that racial bias is at play. Meta-analyses may claim otherwise, but a close look at their moderator analyses suggests that the bias they claim to detect is actually a statistical error. Research on post-trial outcomes might suggest a small anti-black bias but we can’t tell both because there are no meta-analyses that utilize strong controls and correct for publication bias at once, and because this literature in general ignores variables which might contribute to racial differences in legal outcomes. By contrast, these issues do not plague mock jury research, or research comparing the behaviors of black and white judges, and both of these lines of evidence suggest that no racial bias is at play. Thus, I think the available empirical evidence makes the existence of significant anti-black bias in sentencing less probable than its non-existence.....snip~


https://ideasanddata.wordpress.com/2...al-sentencing/


So much for that BS about Prior record and Socioeconomic status being neutralized. Despite you bringing up Poor and rich people. So now, more validation that there is no Systemic racism. Period! More importantly, you not proving any Systemic racism exists and that its just 2 words that you hear and repeat.

[Safety]

Wrong again....its not me that wants Systemic racism to include everything.

Back in post #12 I addressed your mistake...

It is a common misinterpretation to use the term "systemic racism" as it meaning that everyone in the system is racist. In fact, systemic racism means almost the opposite. It means that we have systems and institutions that produce racially disparate outcomes, regardless of the intentions of the people who work within them

That is what Experts defined Systemic racism to be. Including the lefts.....who used a definition and then came up with a Social Theory. Oh now a logical fallacy about some small Podunk town with no blacks. Yet I have used Major urban cities with a police Dept being damn near half of minorities or has more than half being minorities. Which pointing out Chiefs of Police being a minority. Or a Police commissioner being minority. Which I didn't even bring in a Mayor and or Alderman being minorities. Oh and I Use Sowell, Elder and others who have been saying the same thing for years. Were saying it first and because your leftist heroes and race baiters wont take them on. Because they use stats and I am saying the same thing they are. Leaving it in their own words wherein you can't play off how I say something and can't play with terminology.

Let me state the systemic racism definition again..."It means that we have systems and institutions that produce racially disparate outcomes, regardless of the intentions of the people who work within them". Maybe I should post it one more time because they say repetition is key to comprehending.

You don't need to formulate a conclusion. Because you don't have proof that there is Systemic Racism present in Law Enforcement. At best you have a disparity and that there are a few cops that are racists. Period! There is no Systemic racism in Law Enforcement.

Oh, nearly every day there is proof being shown of the effects of systemic racism being present in law enforcement, I have clearly shown it exists not only with facts and datasets, but I even used your own argument attempting to "explain why race is used as a profile" as proof it exists. I mean, we covered this extensively and I understand why you want a "do-over" on the argument, but that ship has sailed. Sorry.

Nice try.....Rich White people and Po Black people. Uhm that isn't about race. That is about Class. Just like Rich white people vs Poor white people. Rich White people vs Poor Latino People. I noticed you didn't include Rich criminals vs any others either.

This is a great example of proof you are not reading what I post, or you are not comprehending it, which is indicative of what you have been doing this entire thread. I said this "Take note, any suggestion of "prior criminal record or socioeconomic status" has already been neutralized. We are not talking about rich white people vs poor black people, or no previous criminal record vs a previous criminal record." It is crucial that in order to participate in a debate, you are honest about what is written, and at the minimum able to comprehend what is written.

On Racial Bias in Criminal Sentencing

August 10, 2019November 4, 2019

Sometimes, people say things like “Black Americans get harsher criminal sentences than white Americans even when race is the only thing differentiating the black and white defendants”. This fact is then pointed to as evidence that racial bias is at work in the American criminal justice system, and American society at large. In this post, I will argue that the available empirical research does not justify this claim and that, in fact, the empirical evidence more favors the view that there is no racial bias in criminal sentencing.


Pre-trial Outcomes
With respect to pre-trial outcomes, Wu (2016) meta-analyzed 36 studies on the effect that race has on the probability that a defendant would be fully charged. Wu argues that these pre-trial decisions are very importance since 80% of state cases and 90% of federal cases never actually go to trial. Wu finds that black defendants are 9% more likely than white defendants to be charged.


In the moderator analysis, Wu produces several interesting findings. First, this effect is only found in the South. This finding is consistent with out intuitions about how racism is distributed across America. However, several other findings from the moderator analysis cast doubt on the idea that this meta-analysis is detecting real bias.


First, the strength of this effect has not changed with time contrary to what we might expect if racial animus was its cause.
Second, it was found that controlling for crime type and criminal history actually increased the size of this effect, a finding that is hard to make any sense of.
Thirdly, and most importantly, no bias was found in studies that reported their standard error. The standard error is a statistic needed to put an result into this meta-analysis. Some studies reported them and others did not. When the standard error was not reported, Wu estimated what the standard error probably was. As Wu writes “Estimated standard errors likely overestimated or underestimated the effect of race and ethnicity on prosecutorial outcomes.”


Post-trial Outcomes
Turning to post-trial decisions, Mitchell (2005) conducted a meta-analysis in which various sentencing outcomes were considered (e.g. prison vs no prison, sentence length, etc.) and converted to a common statistical measure. The results were then divided into those concerning state sentencing and federal sentencing.


With respect to state crimes, black Americans were 28% more likely than white Americans to receive a harsh sentence. However, this gap was reduced to 14% in studies that controlled for things like criminal history and crime type. There was also evidence that studies finding larger effects were more likely to be published since the elevated risk in unpublished studies was only 14% even before applying any controls.


For these findings to be compelling, we would need to see a meta-analysis which both controls for publication bias and only includes studies that control for obvious differences in crime type and criminal history. Since both of these moves seem to reduce the significance of the effect, it is remains unknown whether the result would remain statistically, or practically, significant if both moves were done at once. Given this, until a better meta-analysis is conducted, I don’t think we can form confident views about what this research is actually finding.


Moreover, research on both pre and post trial outcomes suffer from a more fundamental flaw which is that they omit many variables which might differ between black and white criminals and which might explain their differing legal outcomes.


For instance, this research fails to control for differences in the way in which crimes were carried out within the same crime type. As an example, assaults can differ both in their degree of seriousness and in the motives that caused them. These variables might in-turn differ, on average, between black and white criminals in a way that leads to white criminals receiving preferable legal outcomes.


Another omitted variable is courtroom behavior. How criminals act in a courtroom, and especially how remorseful they seem, might influence their sentencing. Yet, this is uncontrolled for in studies on racial bias.


Black Judges and Black Lawyers
Another line of evidence worth mentioning concerns research on racial bias among black judges and black lawyers. These studies offer more evidence that racial bias is not at play in the criminal justice system.


The fact that the supposed racial bias seen among white judges is also found among black judges strengthens the case that this so called “bias” is actually due to variables which differ between black and white criminals but which are omitted from the standard research literature. Of course, it is possible that black judges are racist against black people to the exact same degree that white judges are, but there is no empirical evidence suggesting that this is so, and in the absence of evidence we should assume this is false since black people in general do not exhibit an anti-black bias.



Conclusion

In summary, research on pre-trial outcomes does not seem to favor the view that racial bias is at play. Meta-analyses may claim otherwise, but a close look at their moderator analyses suggests that the bias they claim to detect is actually a statistical error. Research on post-trial outcomes might suggest a small anti-black bias but we can’t tell both because there are no meta-analyses that utilize strong controls and correct for publication bias at once, and because this literature in general ignores variables which might contribute to racial differences in legal outcomes. By contrast, these issues do not plague mock jury research, or research comparing the behaviors of black and white judges, and both of these lines of evidence suggest that no racial bias is at play. Thus, I think the available empirical evidence makes the existence of significant anti-black bias in sentencing less probable than its non-existence.....snip~


https://ideasanddata.wordpress.com/2...al-sentencing/


So much for that BS about Prior record and Socioeconomic status being neutralized. Despite you bringing up Poor and rich people. So now, more validation that there is no Systemic racism. Period! More importantly, you not proving any Systemic racism exists and that its just 2 words that you hear and repeat.

Ok, let's unpack what you just posted.....First, you referenced a f'king blog. Second, the referenced source in your blog "(Wu 2016)" links to an abstract for a document that is access controlled. So, automatically that source is dismissed. The second source in the "blog" "(Mitchell 2005)" links to a report that says this...

Results of analysis of variances and multiple regression analyses indicated that African-American and Latinos were generally sentenced more punitively than were Whites; this effect remained after controlling for defendant criminal history and current offense seriousness. Sentencing disparities were observed for studies that examined drug offenses, imprisonment or discretionary sentencing decisions, and in recent Federal court data analyses. Evidence also suggested that sentencing guidelines were associated with smaller sentencing disparities. Overall, the meta-analysis calls into question the argument that there is no or minimal racial/ethnic sentencing disparity operating in American courts. Policymakers are called upon to re-evaluate sentencing practices.

I mean, your own source within a "blog" not only contradicts your argument, but makes mine. So, what I am going to do is reference the source "within the blog you posted" as being a reference for my position. Thanks.

Here a study of racial disparity in crime sentences concludes..."Using rich new linked data that allow us to address the sample selection problems and other limitations that have pervaded prior research, this paper provides robust evidence that black male federal arrestees ultimately face longer prison terms than whites arrested for the same offenses with the same prior records. This disparity arises from disparities in the intensive but not in the extensive margin of incarceration." (Rehavi)


Rehavi, M. Marit, and Sonja B. Starr. “Racial Disparity in Federal Criminal Sentences.” University of Michigan Law School Scholarship Repository, 2014, repository.law.umich.edu/articles/1414/.

Mitchell, Ojmarrh, and Doris L. MacKenzie. “PUBLICATIONS.” NCJRS Abstract - National Criminal Justice Reference Service, 2004, http://www.ncjrs.gov/App/Publication...aspx?ID=208129.